No big thing, but it was Paul Fullbright, not Paul Anderson. I like
his writing though. :)
Naci Dai wrote:
The wiki is down. I will publish the minutes of the first call here.
You will find a copy of these notes at the wiki when it is back.
---
Minutes of the JEE 5 Working Group meeting
Date:
11/30/2006 / 11 AM EST
Attendees:
Bob Frost
Shaun Smith
Tim Wagner
David Williams
Larry Isaacs
Chuck Bridgham
Paul Andersen
Neil Hauge
Karen Moore
Dave Gordon
John Goodman
Brian Vosburgh
Kaloyan Raev
Max Andersen
and more....
Summary Transcript:
- ND: Welcome to the first call of the JEE working group. We
will
repeat this call weekly to track progress of the implementation.
Working group is composed of the component owner who will lead the
implementation. Today we have a wider audience.
- ND: We will start with a review of the discussion summarized
in
http://wiki.eclipse.org/index.php/JEE_5_Support.
To start with lets
review what is planned in WTP 2.0 for JEE 5 support. David can you
comment on JSP/JSTL support?
- DW: There will be some JSP support for JEE5 for WTP 2.0.
Dteail
sare not clear but there is some work
- ND: How about JSTL? I know Raghu was interested in this for
JSF.
- No answers .... Raghu not online
- ND: Neil, Can you comment on JPA and EJB3 status?
- NH: Dali projects covers the JPA spec. The rest of EJB 3 is not
in
its scope. There is some work thatcan be used for EJB3 like our way of
handling metadata but we do not support session beans.
- CB: Neil, I know that you have built utilities to handle two
different sources for info: Annotations (metadata) and XML descriptors
for the model. We are also interested in supporting both sources in
JEE 5 models. I think a common layer can be extracted from Dali and
contributed to JST. What are your recommendations?
- NH: I can say(hope) that a common model can be defined for both
sources. What
we found is things are very different for these sources. Especially,
the behavioral content is
very different (descriptors are quite different). They are not very
clean.
That has caused a lot complexity. Annotation do not support everything
in the descriptors + model have
to act differently for defaulting - i.e. defaults specs vs java model.
- PA: For example containment behavior is different. In XML you
start with a mapping, and in the
mapping you spec a class. In java you start with class and do the
mapping.
- BV: Another problem is that both models (XML and Annotations)
are
too flat for tooling purposes.
- CB: We should start talking about solutions to these problems.
Thanks to SAP for their contributions. The SAP
proposal made us look at how to extend the models. We have to be
forward thinking about how to extend the models for future version i.e
JEE6. JEE5 is so different that
we need to separate it cleanly from the existing models. We need
interfaces between Java and XML
models. That way we may not need to change the models, which is very
important for backward compatibility. We can add
interfaces as needed.
- MA: Is any of this will be in WTP2.0? WTP 1.5.2 is not EJB3
friendly.
We need a release of WTP 1.5 that does not complain about EJB3 for
JBoss IDE.
- DW: I do not want to sound pessimistic. But we will see what
can
do. But not sure we will be able
to do it in 1.5.3.
- CB: I do not think it is a good idea to change the existing
models. J2EE is currently hard coded in the models. The models do not
not recognize the JEE 5 versions and namespaces. We can create a patch
so that the namespace can be handles, all legacy models will be
included but anything new will not be recognized. Any work beyond that
will be in 2.0
- CB: What are your thoughts on having model interfaces does not
have
dependencies on EMF. We can have a anpother set that has the old style
interfaces with EMF dependencies.
- DW: I support that. Reducing the coupling is better
- CB: EMF provides things like notifications etc. We can
provide
overlapping/alternate interfaces
- PA: EMF very slanted towards XML, not natural to use in Java
sometimes
- CB: Neil, you also have done work to extend AST in JDT with
annotation utils. Any plans to push that into a
common layer.
- BV: No plans
- CB: We are very interested in having that contributed to a
common
layer too. That work is very useful for all kinds of other things.
- BV: JDT has very little. That work allows us to manipulate
annotations, ignorant of types of annotations, it provides
all the sugar on annotations.
- DW: These looks like good places to start. I suggest we find
things like that and open a patch to move them
to a common layer. And iteratively see if this can be done.
- SS: There is a lot of support in Dali for editing and
validating
annotations. I can build EJB3 sessions. Of course, WTP does not
recognize
them as EJBs. To start with we probably do not need any EJB3 editing
tools and wizards. I need validation deployment support. The simple
case is just to package them and deploy them. Do not worry about
descriptors.
- CB: I would like to propose tro extend the existing model to
handle
XML, recognize the new name space (use the old elements), then start
contributing the new plugins as an extended plugins. In phase 2 we can
start
looking at the annotation model. I am not sure when thi scan start (if
at all for WTP 2.0). When we add the support for
the namespaces, we can tolerate the EJB3 descriptors. Extended tools
would
work. I cannot commit to it now. We will start with enabling the JEE
5
models. This work will probably go on after Jan7 (two miletsones left)
M5
is before eclipsecon.
- DW: Ideally we should be done 80% done for M5, M6 should be
done
and
ready to start the end game.
- CB: What are peoples thoughts on making these changes - old
models and
new namespace?
- DW: I would caution against that changes: 1) Any temporary
changes will become
permanent. 2) If not needed for WTP I am against it. But we can
provide
patches. We should do this incrementally. There are too many unknowns.
- BV: You cannot do much with XML without knowing about
annotations, so
these are temporary changes
- MA: Pure EJB project, you do not need too many descriptors. It
is
easier. Now, WTP 1.5 tooling says you have to be complex. To start
with we should think what is the minimal
for support for EJB3.
- ND: We can probably support EJB3 facets, other specific JEE 5
facets and simple projects. If you have done it for JBoss IDE, rre you
interested in contributing that?
- MA: We could, they are quite simple.
- SS: A word of caution.. Even with simple projects, we must
support the old style descriptors so
it will not be that easy.
- MA: Maybe we should start with simple case.
- SS: That is what we start in Dali, we will add complexity
later.
That
is the common use case. Transactions semantics and defaulting is very
similar to DALI
- CB: Enablement you are speaking of does not require XML. That
is
what we are trying to get away from
- MA: JBoss IDE EJB3 support is a facet, if we can handle that we
will be done.
There are some deployment limitations and specific problems, I will
send to Chuck.
Hard coded things and stuff make it hard.
- CB: This will be good,
because this will get us started with an easier use-case that we can
work it.
- DW: We should talk about this focus group. It should be
limited
to people who are working on the code and should be focused on JEE5
support task.
- ND: Agreed.
- CB: We should use the wiki to start adding comments and
minutes.
By
next we should start talking about a plan and what to do for the
milestones.
- DW: Focus group should be working on the code. For others we
can
update status and plans.
- ND: Thanks for attending. The notes will be available at the
wiki. We will meet next week.
--
Naci Dai,
eteration a.s.
itu teknokent ari-1 25
Maslak, Istanbul 34469
+90 (533) 580 2393 (cell)
+90 (212) 328 0825 (phone)
+90 (212) 328 0521 (fax)
http://www.eteration.com/
mailto:naci.dai@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
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--
Paul Fullbright
Oracle Corp.
Eclipse Dali/Java Persistence Tools Development
paul.fullbright@xxxxxxxxxx
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