This certainly corresponds to my understanding as well. Glad there is an option in the works for employees to be able to commit cleanly with employer consent even when the employer is an Eclipse Foundation member. Certainly worth it to see if my own employer would consent.
I hope the Eclipse Foundation folks will clarify, but this is not an issue if your employer isn't and never was an Eclipse Foundation member. In that case, contributing as an individual with employer permission is fine, correct?
Reza Rahman Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.
Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone
-------- Original message -------- From: "Steve Millidge (Payara)" <steve.millidge@xxxxxxxxxxx> Date: 1/29/20 6:25 AM (GMT-08:00) To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx> Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] [Open Feedback] to this Community via Twitter
Let me jump in as a small company that has navigated this process. I am not a spokesperson for the Eclipse Foundation so don’t shoot the messenger but I will explain as I see it.
As far as I understand specification projects need to have very clear patent grants in place as any organisation is able to ship their own api definitions that match the Jakarta EE apis. I know this
is weird to Europeans due to different views on software patents but it is the way it is.
In order to submit IP/patent contributions to spec projects an individual needs to be covered by the Working Group Participant Agreement which essentially assigns over these IP contributions. As
typically an employer will own your patentable IP typically through your employment agreement, often including things you do in your own time and/or with company equipment/resources (read your employment contracts people), then your employer must sign the
working group agreement and therefore join the working group to protect from future patent claims by your employer.
The working group has a number of fee schedules which are tiered by the size of the organisation and the number of committees they want to sit on see
https://www.eclipse.org/org/workinggroups/jakarta_ee_charter.php scroll to the bottom. These fees are not set by the EF but by the working group itself and start at $0 for
organisations with <10 employees or $1M revenues. Therefore self employed or very small companies can join for $0. The EF does stipulate that an organisation must also be a member of the EF to join a working group.
None of this applies for contributions to implementations e.g. Jersey, GlassFish, Tyrus etc. etc. this ONLY applies to Specification projects defining apis.
An anomaly arises whereby an individual is an employee of an organisation that refuses to join the working group for other reasons. AFAIK the EF is drafting a specific legal agreement that person can get their employer to sign which will
mean they are happy to assign over the IP and they don’t need to join the WG.
As I see it as a small business this is not about pay to play but about clean IP. Hope I made it a little clearer.
Steve
From: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx <jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
On Behalf Of Mihai A.
Sent: 29 January 2020 14:04
To: Jakarta EE community discussions <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] [Open Feedback] to this Community via Twitter
Hi Mrs. Obradovic, hi Mr. Beaten,
Two questions from my side:
1. Is the committer required to have an employer? Aren't freelancers or simply occasional OSS contributors able to contribute to Specs?
2. Why are there fees for contributing to Specs? I understand the paperwork and the fact that Eclipse Fdn. later retains the right of Property.
But in the end, Eclipse Fdn. is the one receiving the work. From my point of view, if we're talking about payments, Eclipse Fdn should pay contributors, not the other way around.
Mark, Mihai, Romain, All,
all you points and concerns are very seriously taken at Eclipse Foundation and we DO NEED every single person already involved with Jakarta EE to stay involved, but also we need community to grow!
The problem you pointed out does not work at all fro anyone and we are addressing it. I am also hoping you all had a chance to read response from Wayne Beaton to the thread. I will copy it here:
"The important difference here is that we're talking about specification work. The intellectual property flows are fundamentally different for specification
development than they are for software development.
Due to these differences in intellectual property flows, we need to have extra legal documentation in place for specification project committers in the form
of the Working Group Participation Agreement. By signing that agreement, the committer's employer becomes a participant in the working group and subject to the terms of the agreement (which includes participation fees).
That a person cannot become a committer on a specification project unless their employer joins the working group is an obvious hole in our process that we
identified with help from the Jakarta EE Working Group's Specification Committee. We're working on filing this hole. Since this is legal documentation, it takes a little time. We're close to ready to roll this out.
FWIW, Romain's committer status has been suspended, not revoked, while we sort this out. What happened... we created the projects that Romain is a committer
on before we had a specification process. When we switched those projects into specification process as defined by the newly created specification process, the fact that we didn't have the necessary paperwork in place to support Romain's involvement with specification
work required that we suspend his account while it was sorted out. The EMO Records team has communicated this with Romain.
We've come quite a long way from having no specification process 18 months ago to today. As we identify problems, we address them. The patience, understanding,
and participation of the community as we push forward with specification work at the Eclipse Foundation is appreciated."
Hope this helps!
Best,
Tanja
On 2020-01-29 8:26 a.m., Mihai A. wrote:
I mean, how does this "business model" even work? Are you going to charge contributors for ... working for you!?
I am here struggling to get some cash from doing opensource.
I didn't realize I had to ask my other contributors to pay me for the code they write!
That probably might have nothing to do with that specific issue. Might have just to do with lack of resources. I would not presume any bad intent in this area, really.
Eclipse always had some 'management tiers' which are mainly about top management buzzword bingo. For those there was always a required fee. I don't care much, as those levels are mostly self-marketing for companies. But the EF guaranteed in the beginning that
the _actual work_ would be free of those politics and ANYBODY can contribute.
LieGrue,
strub
> Am 29.01.2020 um 14:13 schrieb Mihai A. <amihaiemil@xxxxxxxxx>:
>
> Now I understand why the tickets I open to various related projects get no answer and nobody seems really interested in them,
> Talking about feature requests, not necessarily bugs.
>
> Cool story.
>
> Br,
> Mihai
>
> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 15:10, Mark Struberg <struberg@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Talked with him.
> Romain now works for a company which has signed up on a low level Eclipse membership since ages.
> But their 'tier' doesn't qualify for having someone work on an EG or working group it seems.
> So EF seemingly asked his company management to 'upgrade' their account and pay FU****NG 10k just for Romain to be able to continue to contribute. And then they suspended all his Eclipse committership alltogether.
>
> Hell, this is SOOO WRONG on soo many levels. We should be freaking happy to have people like Romain continue to contribute to and support Jakarta EE. But instead his company gets ripped off?
> I mean, this is really odd. This is pure pay to play and a shame for calling itself Open Source!
>
> Dear Eclipse leadership. JakartaEE needs people like Romain. JakartaEE needs other OSS foundations, JakartaEE actually needs the all the community you can get!
>
> JakartaEE is not a standard Eclipse project - don't wreck it!
>
> LieGrue,
> strub
>
>
> > Am 28.01.2020 um 22:25 schrieb Markus KARG <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >
> > What actually was the trigger for Romain's statement?
> > -Markus
> >
> >
> > Von:
jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im Auftrag von Kevin Sutter
> > Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Januar 2020 21:04
> > An: Jakarta EE community discussions
> > Betreff: Re: [jakarta.ee-community] [Open Feedback] to this Community via Twitter
> >
> > Romain is entitled to his opinion, but I don't agree with it.
> >
> > I belong to and have participated in both foundations -- Eclipse and Apache. Yes, they are different. They both have quirks. But, I do not agree with posting something like this and asking for a discussion. At least not on the Jakarta EE Community forum.
We should focus on Jakarta EE issues and questions, and not opinions about the Eclipse Foundation. My two cents worth...
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > Kevin Sutter
> > STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect @ IBM
> > e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx Twitter: @kwsutter
> > phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
> > LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Amelia Eiras <aeiras@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > To: Jakarta EE Community <jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > Date: 01/28/2020 13:31
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] [jakarta.ee-community] [Open Feedback] to this Community via Twitter
> > Sent by:
jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
> >
> >
> >
> > Hello from Las Vegas Jakartees,
> >
> > with reference to this Tweet
> >
> > <image001.png>
> > If Romain's statements are true, why are they true?
> >
> > Amelia Eiras
> > twitter.com/ameliaeiras
> > Tribe: http://tomitribe.com
https://tribestream.io
> > OSS: http://microprofile.io https://jakarta.ee_______________________________________________
> > jakarta.ee-community mailing list
> > jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> >
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > jakarta.ee-community mailing list
> > jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
> > To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
> >
https://www.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/jakarta.ee-community
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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>
> --
> amihaiemil.com
> https://www.github.com/amihaiemil
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Eclipse Foundation, Inc.
Twitter: @TanjaEclipse
Eclipse
Foundation: The Platform for Open Innovation and Collaboration
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