> AFAIK every project
(in this case EPP) can set its BREE independently. As EPP is kind of
special
as it consumes others. This kind of forces them to pick the hightest
BREE
of their components.
This is not true. As David pointed
out,
the BREE is per bundle. A package or download can contain bundles that
have a higher BREE than the minimum JRE defined to run it. It just means
that some functionality will not work in that case. Even the Eclipse SDK
ships bundles with BREE JavaSE-1.8 even though JavaSE-1.7 is still a
reference
platform. Of course, if a core bundle moves up, then the case is clear,
that's why we are much more strict to allow bundles lower in the stack
to be moved up For the Jetty argument, It is up to the product owners to
decide whether Help is a required part of the product or is optional
i.e.
working only for those using a higher JRE than the minimum.
Dani
From:
Lars Vogel
<lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To:
Eclipse Packaging Project
<epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date:
30.07.2015 23:03
Subject:
Re: [epp-dev]
Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Sent by:
epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
AFAIK every project (in this case EPP) can set its
BREE
independently. As EPP is kind of special as it consumes others. This
kind
of forces them to pick the hightest BREE of their components.
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Doug Schaefer <dschaefer@xxxxxxx>
wrote:
Actually, this discussion should
probably
go to the cross projects list. It’s not clear to me who has the power
to make this decision. Does the EPP have any power over this? It can
keep
the BREE at 7 and deliver broken packages, but that’s probably not a
practical
path.
Doug
From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Konstantin Komissarchik <konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 4:34 PM
To: 'Eclipse Packaging Project' <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Unfortunately Oomph
isn’t
a full solution here as you need to be able to run Oomph, which is built
on the same foundation as Eclipse. Oomph might catch and handle some
cases,
but not everything.
- Konstantin
From: epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eric Rizzo
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 1:08 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Konstantin
Komissarchik
July 30, 2015 3:54
PM
One more thing…
Most of the
Java-version issues that we’ve seen in our support cases could be
remedied
by enhancing Eclipse launcher to prompt user to select a compatible JVM.
That is, the issue isn’t so much that users can’t have a particular Java
version, but rather that they have multiple versions and Eclipse chooses
the wrong one, or they simply don’t know that they need to install a new
version.
- Konstantin
Well Oomph takes care of that particular problem (although IMO the UI
for
it still could use a bit of tweaking); I suspect by the time Neon ships,
Oomph will be in full stride as the most-endorsed way of getting Eclipse
(I'm pretty sure that's the way Ed and Eike would like to see it be
:-).
That of course would mean the EPP packages take on a diminished role to
the general user community.
Eric
From: Konstantin Komissarchik
[mailto:konstantin.komissarchik@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:49 PM
To: 'Eclipse Packaging Project'
Subject: RE: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
What’s wrong with
the answer
that developers in environments that can’t have Java 8 have to stay on
the Mars service line and rely on long term support organizations for
bug
fixes?
Another thing to
note is that
by the time that Neon ships, Java 9 will be just around the corner.
- Konstantin
From:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Eric Rizzo
Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2015 12:02 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but
doesn't
totally eliminate them.
There are pretty
easy workarounds
for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to
install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse
directory
still works.
You'd think we're
dealing
with a user base, being primarily developers, who could easily deal with
such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption isn't as reliable
as one might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a portable
(non-installer)
JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical
Windows installer, but JDK does.
Eric
Doug.
From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
Marcel Bruch <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Lars
Vogel
July 30, 2015 2:29
PM
Hi Eric,
In this context I
think we
should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same
real
data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to
provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the error reporters
using
Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
--
Eclipse Platform UI
and e4
project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032)
221739404,
Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx,
Web: http://www.vogella.com
_______________________________________________
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
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Eric
Rizzo
July 30, 2015 2:18
PM
I'm not an EPP
package maintainer
or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on
this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
(especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
packages
were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
years'
experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints
and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users
literally
can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that
users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through
corporate
IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
everyone
focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored
and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing
them
down the throats of our large user base.
Eric
Lars
Vogel
July 30, 2015 1:52
PM
_______________________________________________
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Eric
Rizzo
July 30, 2015 3:02
PM
Doug
Schaefer
July 30, 2015 2:36
PM
And we’re talking
about Neon
which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be two years old.
Valid point, Doug. It gives me a little relief from me concerns, but
doesn't
totally eliminate them.
There are pretty
easy workarounds
for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to
install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse
directory
still works.
You'd think we're
dealing
with a user base, being primarily developers, who could easily deal with
such workarounds. But time has shown that assumption isn't as reliable
as one might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a portable
(non-installer)
JDK harder and harder to obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical
Windows installer, but JDK does.
Eric
Doug.
From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
Marcel Bruch <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
information, privileged material (including material protected by the
solicitor-client
or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information.
Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient
is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please
immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
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Lars
Vogel
July 30, 2015 2:29
PM
Hi Eric,
In this context I
think we
should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same
real
data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to
provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the error reporters
using
Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
--
Eclipse Platform UI
and e4
project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032)
221739404,
Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx,
Web: http://www.vogella.com
_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
Eric
Rizzo
July 30, 2015 2:18
PM
I'm not an EPP
package maintainer
or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on
this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
(especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
packages
were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
years'
experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints
and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users
literally
can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that
users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through
corporate
IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
everyone
focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored
and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing
them
down the throats of our large user base.
Eric
Lars
Vogel
July 30, 2015 1:52
PM
Hi,
I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
an email to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in Neon.
I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:
- Java 7 is out of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.
In Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
API via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
requires Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
system to Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your
delivery options,
retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
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Doug
Schaefer
July 30, 2015 2:36
PM
And we’re talking
about Neon
which releases in a year. When Java 8 will be two years old.
There are pretty
easy workarounds
for those users who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way to
install Eclipse on their machines. The embedded jre in the Eclipse
directory
still works.
Doug.
From: <epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
on behalf of Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Thursday, July 30, 2015 at 2:29 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
Marcel Bruch <marcel.bruch@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
---------------------------------------------------------------------
This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential
information, privileged material (including material protected by the
solicitor-client
or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information.
Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient
is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please
immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
system.
Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission
by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
from this list, visit
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Lars
Vogel
July 30, 2015 2:29
PM
Hi Eric,
In this context I
think we
should look at the current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave same
real
data about the current user base of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to
provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the error reporters
using
Eclipse Mars are using already Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
--
Eclipse Platform UI
and e4
project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032)
221739404,
Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx,
Web: http://www.vogella.com
_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
Eric
Rizzo
July 30, 2015 2:18
PM
I'm not an EPP
package maintainer
or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community perspective on
this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
(especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
packages
were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
years'
experience supporting the community, that there will be many complaints
and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where users
literally
can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly likely that
users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump through
corporate
IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
everyone
focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored
and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing
them
down the throats of our large user base.
Eric
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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information, privileged material (including material protected by the
solicitor-client
or other applicable privileges), or constitute non-public information.
Any use of this information by anyone other than the intended recipient
is prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please
immediately reply to the sender and delete this information from your
system.
Use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission
by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
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To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe
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--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email: lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx,
Web: http://www.vogella.com[attachment
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