I agree this discussion should be on cross-projects. Not everyone
is on the epp-dev list.
On 30/07/2015 4:49 PM, Doug Schaefer
wrote:
Actually, this discussion should probably go to the cross
projects list. It’s not clear to me who has the power to make
this decision. Does the EPP have any power over this? It can
keep the BREE at 7 and deliver broken packages, but that’s
probably not a practical path.
Doug
Unfortunately Oomph isn’t a full solution
here as you need to be able to run Oomph, which is
built on the same foundation as Eclipse. Oomph might
catch and handle some cases, but not everything.
- Konstantin
One more thing… Most of the
Java-version issues that we’ve seen in our
support cases could be remedied by enhancing
Eclipse launcher to prompt user to select a
compatible JVM. That is, the issue isn’t so much
that users can’t have a particular Java version,
but rather that they have multiple versions and
Eclipse chooses the wrong one, or they simply
don’t know that they need to install a new
version.
- Konstantin
Well Oomph takes care of that particular problem
(although IMO the UI for it still could use a bit of
tweaking); I suspect by the time Neon ships, Oomph
will be in full stride as the most-endorsed way of
getting Eclipse (I'm pretty sure that's the way Ed and
Eike would like to see it be :-). That of course
would mean the EPP packages take on a diminished role
to the general user community.
Eric
What’s wrong with the answer that
developers in environments that can’t have Java 8
have to stay on the Mars service line and rely on
long term support organizations for bug fixes?
Another thing to note is that by the
time that Neon ships, Java 9 will be just around
the corner.
- Konstantin
Valid point, Doug. It
gives me a little relief from me concerns, but
doesn't totally eliminate them.
There
are pretty easy workarounds for those users
who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found
a way to install Eclipse on their machines.
The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory
still works.
You'd think we're dealing
with a user base, being primarily developers, who
could easily deal with such workarounds. But time
has shown that assumption isn't as reliable as one
might think. One problem is that Oracle makes a
portable (non-installer) JDK harder and harder to
obtain. Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical
Windows installer, but JDK does.
Eric
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Hi
Eric,
In
this context I think we should look at the
current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave
same real data about the current user base
of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to
provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75%
of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars
are using already Java 8.
--
Eclipse
Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer
Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
http://www.vogella.com
I'm not an EPP package
maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide
some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well
known that many people and (especially)
corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If
Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can
pretty much guarantee, based on many years'
experience supporting the community, that there
will be many complaints and confused users. In
fact, in a corporate environment where users
literally can not update their own workstations,
I'd say it's highly likely that users would be
unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm
just trying to keep everyone focused on the
users. Just because we, as tool developers, are
enamored and in love with the latest toys
doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down
the throats of our large user base.
Eric
And
we’re talking about Neon which releases in a
year. When Java 8 will be two years old.
Valid point,
Doug. It gives me a little relief from me
concerns, but doesn't totally eliminate them.
There
are pretty easy workarounds for those users
who can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found
a way to install Eclipse on their machines.
The embedded jre in the Eclipse directory
still works.
You'd
think we're dealing with a user base, being
primarily developers, who could easily deal with
such workarounds. But time has shown that
assumption isn't as reliable as one might think.
One problem is that Oracle makes a portable
(non-installer) JDK harder and harder to obtain.
Eclipse itself doesn't need a typical Windows
installer, but JDK does.
Eric
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Hi
Eric,
In
this context I think we should look at the
current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave
same real data about the current user base
of Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to
provide better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75%
of the error reporters using Eclipse Mars
are using already Java 8.
--
Eclipse
Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer
Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
http://www.vogella.com
I'm not an EPP package
maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide
some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well
known that many people and (especially)
corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If
Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can
pretty much guarantee, based on many years'
experience supporting the community, that there
will be many complaints and confused users. In
fact, in a corporate environment where users
literally can not update their own workstations,
I'd say it's highly likely that users would be
unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm
just trying to keep everyone focused on the
users. Just because we, as tool developers, are
enamored and in love with the latest toys
doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down
the throats of our large user base.
Eric
Hi,
I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8,
which triggered this
request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he
suggested that I should send
an email to this list to trigger the
discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in Neon.
I personally think it would be great to
require Java 8 as BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:
- Java 7 is out of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will
require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their
code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would
bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.
In Platform UI I would also like to support
the Java 8 Date and Time
API via Databinding, which would also bump
platform to Java 8. This is
not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK
the Jetty webserver also
requires Java 8, which would result in a bump
in the Eclipse Help
system to Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
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And
we’re talking about Neon which releases in a
year. When Java 8 will be two years old.
There
are pretty easy workarounds for those users who
can’t upgrade their Java yet somehow found a way
to install Eclipse on their machines. The
embedded jre in the Eclipse directory still
works.
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or constitute non-public information. Any use of
this information by anyone other than the intended
recipient is prohibited. If you have received this
transmission in error, please immediately reply to
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Hi
Eric,
In
this context I think we should look at the
current user base. Marcel (cc) recently gave
same real data about the current user base of
Mars. @Marcel, please feel free to provide
better numbers, but IIRC approx. 75% of the
error reporters using Eclipse Mars are using
already Java 8.
--
Eclipse
Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich
de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
Fax (032) 221739404, Email:
lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx, Web:
http://www.vogella.com
I'm not an EPP package
maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide
some user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well
known that many people and (especially)
corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If
Eclipse packages were to require Java 8, I can
pretty much guarantee, based on many years'
experience supporting the community, that there
will be many complaints and confused users. In
fact, in a corporate environment where users
literally can not update their own workstations,
I'd say it's highly likely that users would be
unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm
just trying to keep everyone focused on the users.
Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored
and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we
can justify pushing them down the throats of our
large user base.
Eric
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protected by the solicitor-client or other applicable privileges),
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by anyone other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you
have received this transmission in error, please immediately reply
to the sender and delete this information from your system. Use,
dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this transmission
by unintended recipients is not authorized and may be unlawful.
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