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Re: [ide-dev] Photon IDE, by Eclipse
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+1 too!I'm not totally against adding a name
to the branding but nothing else.-100 to choose "Photon". Tons
of people will download Eclipse Photon next June. How do you explain them
that the next download, also called "Photon" according to your
proposal, is not the same old thing?If we add a name, the only acceptable
thing for me would be to cast a vote like we always do for the release
name.DaniFrom:
Lars Vogel <lars.vogel@xxxxxxxxxxx>To:
Discussions about the
IDE <ide-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>Date:
27.10.2017 14:47Subject:
Re: [ide-dev]
Photon IDE, by EclipseSent by:
ide-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
+1 to Eds opinion
Am 27.10.2017 12:49 schrieb "Ed Merks" <ed.merks@xxxxxxxxx>:
Mickael,
I'm not sure which thread you wanted to the discussion
is in. Certainly there are technical problems, e.g., having an eclipse.exe,
an eclipsec.exe but no photonc.exe in the folder, but those are just details
to fix...
Let me say up front that I hate this idea. But before
explaining all the reasons why I hate it, I want take a step back because
I still question what fundamental problem(s) are we trying to solve and
what we could or should do to solve them.
I believe that Mike has mentioned that establishing a strong
brand takes millions of dollars over several years. The Eclipse brand
is well-established and strong. One problem---the one I believe you
are focused on---appears to be that the brand is strongly (too strongly?)
associated with the Java IDE, so your solution appears to be to replace
Eclipse with Photon (or with ${whatever}) in as many places as possible
to try to change that situation. Unfortunately I don't believe this
will in any way, shape, or form improve anything for the IDE itself; the
IDE does not need to distinguish itself from any misconception of what
exactly it is.
It is the Eclipse Foundation as an organization that needs
to ensure its brand is distinguished from the Java IDE, and it is each
of Eclipse's non-JDT projects that need to ensure its Eclipse sub-brand
is also strong. But I don't feel that this should be done at
the expense of the IDE itself; the IDE will not benefit from a weakening
of its established strong brand. I also feel that the
recent creation of the Java EE project as an Eclipse-hosted project will
go a long way toward changing perceptions about all that it means to be
be "Eclipse", though even here one might argue that the perception
will remain too strongly associated with Java. That being said, Mike
mentioned that a large C++ community perceives Eclipse as a C/C++ IDE,
but of course that community is small compare to Java.
I also question, what will really change if all the users
should see Eclipse as a Java IDE suddenly realize that Eclipse is just
a great place to host open source projects. Will they come out in
droves to host their projects at Eclipse? And would we even want
that if there were no associated financial investment in the Eclipse foundation?
I doubt that changing the perceptions of IDE users will have any important
impact at all. The end users are not the ones making decisions
about whether to host important open source projects at Eclipse, so this
as a focal point seems misdirected...
But let's just suppose for a moment that this were a brilliant
idea. Who is planning on rewriting all the long-established
documentation to correct all the technical details related to folder and
file names? E.g., to point out that it's now photon.ini you need
to edit, not eclipse.ini, unless you have an older version. Who will
migrate all the scripts that make assumptions about file/folder names that
will need to be rewritten. Will I be able to update from Oxygen to
Photon; goodness knows we never seem to get that quite right?
Will there now be a .photon hidden folder in the home folder and will I
have to migrate my .eclipse content to the .photon folder and will that
be annoying if I ever use an older and a new Eclipse IDE at the same time?
So my point is that surely even if it were brilliant to
rebrand the IDE, which I doubt, we most definitely should restrict ourselves
to the visible branding (splash screen, translable strings, web pages)
and avoid changing technical artifacts names because that will be highly
disruptive to any existing documentation, scripts, and other infrastructure.
Regards,
Ed
On 26.10.2017 18:52, Mickael Istria wrote:
Hi again,
(You really thought I gave up on this one? :P)
Branding has been an important and interesting topic when
chatting at EclipseCon Europe. Surprisingly, I've (finally!) received some
positive feedback on this idea of renaming the EPP packages to Photon,
and it seems like some people who were strongly against it seem open to
re-discuss the idea.
To make things more real, and let you figure out what
this proposal changes -and doesn't change- for end-users, I've created
a Gerrit patch that takes care of renaming EPP packages from "Eclipse"
to "Eclipse Photon IDE": https://git.eclipse.org/r/#/c/110603/. You can try the result at https://hudson.eclipse.org/packaging/job/epp-tycho-build.gerrit/621/artifact/org.eclipse.epp.packages/archive/.
Please give it a try, take the time to evaluate the issues
it can cause to users, and what can be the opportunities and simplification
that it can bring to the IDE, the end-users and the community of Eclipse.org
project just by adding a "first name" to the IDE; and then share
your positive and/or negative feedback.
To be clear, the proposal would be to lock the Photon
name, call it "Eclipse Photon IDE" forever or at least until
the name becomes an issue, and let it have growing versions, whose scheme
(4.8/4.9, 2018.6/2018.9...) should remain a different topic which moreover
depends a lot on the final decision of the Planning Council regarding release
cadence. So let's focus on the name and avoid brainstorming on the versions.
For the technical details, let's use the Gerrit patch
and https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=526456to keep the thread here focusing on the "functional" value/risk
of this proposal.
Enjoy,
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