| Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ? |
I hadn't picked up on that :( Yeah, I don't think we should break compatibility in a build that some users install as an SR. So that idea's out. That would push us all the way to the Mars release next year, which I agree is much too long.
> discontinuing support for 3.8 in an SR (which perceptibly where we plug 8.5 in)
Ok, so although the timing of this change is later than we would normally choose, I can see the value of it.
Thanks for your explanation.
Marc
________________________________________
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 2:44 PM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
You are correct, I don't want to take this lightly. I want to you to be sure there is someone out there who would care about CDT 8.4 running on 3.8 before agreeing to maintain compatibility. I was promised at EclipseCon 2013 that we could break it by now, and now I'm doing it. You can go back on that promise but consider how that affects our perception. And how about supporting anti-Eclipse 4.x people. Or discontinuing support for 3.8 in an SR (which perceptibly where we plug 8.5 in)________________________________________
As the lead project outside of the Eclipse SDK, we need to throw our weight 100% behind Eclipse 4. That's the perception I care about more at this point.
Again, I want to hear from someone who actually needs 3.8 so I can understand their context and make this discussion concrete. I've been involved in the CDT for a long time and have seen years of adoptors not contributing. At least they can contribute to this discussion.
Doug.
________________________________________From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Marc Khouzam [marc.khouzam@xxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 1:43 PM
To: 'CDT General developers list.'
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
Hi,
I don’t think we should be breaking compatibility with 3.8 without having a good reason to do so. Since Marc-Andre posted a fix to keep CDT 8.4 compatible with 3.8, we don’t seem have a technical reason to break that compatibility. So the reason is non-technical; the idea is that we want to motivate people to move forward which we argue to be in the best interest of the CDT project.
I’m on board with that argument. However, I’m not comfortable with making this change for that reason late in the release cycle. A decision like that warrants being mentioned to and agreed by committers, and being announced to consumers somehow. One can argue that since no one complained of the breaking change, especially committers, it means no one minds. The committers may not care about 3.8 (I don’t), but I’m sure we care about how the CDT project is perceived, and on that front, I think we may look bad if we take this decision too casually.
I would be more comfortable in keeping the compatibility with 3.8 for CDT 8.4, and, first thing after the release, proposing to break that compatibility immediately for the 8.5 release. If we get an agreement, that would only delay this progress by 4 months.
Anyone else?
Thanks
Marc
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Oberhuber, Martin
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:48 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
Hi Doug,
Thanks for all your efforts on the natives feature.
My current problem with Terminal is more of a build problem … the TCF build as a whole has to run against one CDT repo as a whole (and TCF-Debug uses CDT-Debug which uses CDT-UI).
Thus the TCF build (as a whole) can’t run on Eclipse 3.8 any more at the moment, and I’m afraid that’s a blocker for me … but the problem is very new and I’m looking for clever solutions.
Backporting the natives feature to the CDT-8.3.x was one of the ideas that I had entertained… but that is too early to call a plan.
Anyways, let’s hear from other people as you suggested.
Shall CDT forcefully break Eclipse 3.8 compatibility to force people update even if there’s no technical reason ?
Or shall it just announce “no more 3.8 support in Luna” but take a relaxed approach and not break it as long as it’s not in the way ?
Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber, SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools, Wind River
direct +43.662.457915.85 fax +43.662.457915.6
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:31 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
Have we not done enough with the natives feature to satisfy the terminal view? I thought we had. It's only the cdt.ui plug-in that depends on e4. You shouldn't be affected.
I guess I'm just making a stand on this right now. I'd like to hear from people who are actually affected by this. They clearly haven't been helping us test 8.4 or their installs would have broken two weeks ago. I'm starting to wonder if there is anyone.
Doug.
________________________________________From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Oberhuber, Martin [Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 12:04 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
Hi Doug,
I mostly agree with you : there needs to be a path forward for modernization.
So I’m absolutely in favor of adding an item to the Release Review documentation (or download pages or whatever) explicitly stating “CDT 8.4 requires Eclipse 4.3.2 or newer” or something similar.
We clearly don’t want the CDT to be stuck or the 3.x support to be an impediment of any sort ; and we want to clearly communicate that.
Luna as a yearly major release is a good time for officially announcing EOL for 3.x support.
Now that being said, I don’t quite understand why you want to forcefully and deliberately break 3.x when there is no technical reason.
My current use-case is this: Community member has Eclipse 3.8 and wants to install the Local Terminal from the marketplace.
Local Terminal requires cdt-8.4 because I need my contribution from bug 303083.
⇒ Community member is probably pissed thinking “why should I update to Eclipse 4.x just for a simple app like the terminal”.
I really appreciate the effort that Marc-Andre has made and I’d love to see this being accepted … “as long as it’s easy to do and doesn’t stand in the way of innovation” as we said in Reston 2013.
Plus, clear communication NOW that there’s NO PROMISE whatsoever for the Luna SR cycle.
Does that sound acceptable ?
Shall we wait for other committer’s comments ?
Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber, SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools, Wind River
direct +43.662.457915.85 fax +43.662.457915.6
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Doug Schaefer
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:53 AM
To: CDT General developers list.
Subject: Re: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
I think you were in the room. At the CDT summit in Reston in 2013, we promised one more release of 3.8 compatibility and that's it. That was Kepler.
Adopters have had 4 years to move to 4.x or have their problems raised and fixes contributed. I have no sympathy for them if they feel "stuck" on 3.x. The Eclipse Platform team no longer supports it, why should we? We should get everyone on to 4.x to make sure it's getting the eyes and contributions it needs and we can continue to move the yardsticks forward.
If there are vendors stuck on 3.x for whatever reason, they are free to fork and support it themselves.
Doug.
From: cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [cdt-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] on behalf of Oberhuber, Martin [Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]_______________________________________________
Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2014 6:32 PM
To: cdt-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [cdt-dev] CDT-8.4 requires Eclipse 4.x ... CDT-8.3.x maintenance ?
Hi all,
While CDT-8.3 could work on Eclipse 3.8.2 it seems that CDT-8.4 now requires Eclipse 4.x (some CSS dependency in o.e.cdt.ui).
I seem to have missed the discussion where this was agreed on.
For some in the community, this might be a very relevant thing to know;
So if some discussion has happened, can you point me to it ?
And make sure it gets mentioned in the Luna Release Review.
TCF-1.2 for instance is designed to still run on Eclipse 3.8.2 , that’s what we agreed with some of our adopters;
therefore we can only depend on CDT-8.3 and none of the newer API’s (like bug 303083 – sigh – trying to find a solution here).
We are of course contributing to Luna and testing against Eclipse-4.4 / CDT-8.4 but we’re building against CDT-8.3 and the old API’s only.
I see some maintenance still ongoing in the cdt_8_3 branch:
http://git.eclipse.org/c/cdt/org.eclipse.cdt.git/log/?h=cdt_8_3
Could the CDT committers consider a CDT 8.3.1 maintenance release for those stuck on Eclipse 3.8.2 at some point ?
Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber, SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools, Wind River
direct +43.662.457915.85 fax +43.662.457915.6
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