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Fw: [ui-best-practices-working-group] Pstmortem thoughts on discussion on use of ellipsis
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This is a bit of repeat and expansion
of my comments in the bug:
I believe the UIWG has a real role to
play in being a discussion forum for these exact kind of issues. Because
it is made up of UI experts from different projects and different companies,
it provides a well rounded, balanced, inclusive view onto these issues.
In the UIWG meeting, we spent an entire
hour (plus more in prep) discussing this issue. Many excellent points
were raised that I hadn't previously considered. It was a really
great discussion. I had decided beforehand that I would listen and act
on what the group decided. Why? Because first to not do so
would be hubris on my part, and second because otherwise it raises the
question, "Why have the group in the first place?".
These kind of slippery but focused topics
are a great source of material for the UIWG and I found the session extremely
effective. I will endeavour to reach out to it more often and I encourage
others to as well.
Thank you everyone for your time,
Kevin
----- Forwarded by Kevin
McGuire/Ottawa/IBM on 05/16/2008 10:56 AM -----
Kevin McGuire/Ottawa/IBM@IBMCA
Sent by: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
05/15/2008 05:32 PM
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Please respond to
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Working Group <ui-best-practices-working-group@xxxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject
| RE: [ui-best-practices-working-group]
Prep info for discussion
on useof ellipsis |
|
It fascinates me the amount of time and energy that has gone into three
little dots. Perhaps we should make it a preference? :)
Martin, its too long to try to replay the arguments but the issue was around
notion of completion, which both guidelines share to some degree but treat
regard Preferences differently.
>>Change is work and produces confusion, so I'm only in favor of
>>change when there is some advantage.
I agree, but this was an attempt to be consistent with *some* guideline
(which in general has always been MS) because people copy the platform.
Today is basically our RC1 deadline... I can't think more on this at this
moment sorry.
Kevin
"Mik Kersten"
<mik@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent by: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
05/15/2008 04:44 PM
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mik@xxxxxxxxxxx; Please respond to
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Working Group'" <ui-best-practices-working-group@xxxxxxxxxxx>
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Subject
| RE: [ui-best-practices-working-group]
Prep info for discussion on
useof ellipsis |
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I’ve been using Eclipse without the ellipses on Preferences for a few
weeks now, and purely from a selfish user point of I definitely prefer
having them. I would have figured that I’d be used to them missing
at this point, but I’m not, because all the Microsoft/Adobe/Apple apps
that I use on Vista still have them. In terms of overall consistency,
my thinking is still along the lines stated on the bug: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=226468#c5
Mik
From: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Oberhuber, Martin
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 1:21 PM
To: User Interface Architecture Working Group
Subject: RE: [ui-best-practices-working-group] Prep info for discussion
on useof ellipsis
Hi Kevin,
I'm not on the UI WG, but I have a clear opinion here: pick Apple
where it makes more sense, especially if it is what we already do.
Change is work and produces confusion, so I'm only in favor of
change when there is some advantage.
In this case, the Apple guideline is clearer and without ambiguity;
Microsoft's argument of "Reducing Screen Clutter" is a non-argument
for me, compared to the advantage of knowing when choosing a
menu item performs some work right away versus when I still
have a chance of reviewing stuff (in a new window) before it fires.
Gimme those Ellipses back!
Cheers,
--
Martin Oberhuber, Senior Member of Technical Staff, Wind
River
Target Management Project Lead, DSDP PMC Member
http://www.eclipse.org/dsdp/tm
From: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Kevin McGuire
Sent: Mittwoch, 30. April 2008 00:45
To: User Interface Architecture Working Group
Subject: [ui-best-practices-working-group] Prep info for discussion
on useof ellipsis
Hi gang,
Problem Statement
Based on our read of the Vista guidelines, we changed "Preferences..."
to "Preferences". This triggered bug https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=226468
which requested it be changed back. See the bug for the discussion.
In addition to answering the specific question, there's is of course the
general issue of either which guideline to follow, or how to intepret the
Vista/XP guideline.
I thought it'd be fun, since this is a guideline issue, for us to decide
as a group.
Vista/XP
My read of the Vista guideline http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511453.aspx,
suggests it shouldn't have ellipsis (my bold):
While command buttons are used for immediate actions, more information
might
be needed to perform the action. Indicate a command that needs additional
information (including confirmation) by adding an ellipsis at the end of
the
button label.
Proper use of ellipses is important to indicate that users can make further
choices before performing the action, or even cancel the action entirely.
The
visual cue offered by an ellipsis allows users to explore your software
without
fear.
This doesn't mean you should use an ellipsis whenever an action displays
another window only when additional information is required to perform
the
action. Consequently, any command button whose implied verb is show another
window doesn't take an ellipsis, such as with the commands About, Advanced,
Help (or any other command linking to a Help topic), Options, Properties,
or
Settings.
Generally, ellipses are used in UI to indicate incompleteness. Commands
that
show other windows aren't incomplete they must display another window and
additional information isn't needed to perform their action. This approach
eliminates screen clutter in situations where ellipses have little value.
"Preferences" is much like "Properties", which they
do specifically mention, and seems to fit the case description of being
an implied "Show Preferences".
With respect to XP, the Windows Interface Guidelines book (http://www.amazon.com/Windows-Interface-Guidelines-Software-Design/dp/1556156790)
reads approximately the same and calls out Properties as not deserving,
so I don't think there was a guideline change from XP to Vista, just clarification.
I should add that we've always deferred to the Windows guidelines in cases
where there wasn't something Eclipse specific worth calling out.
Apple
The Apple guideline is more liberal with use of ellipsis http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/XHIGText/chapter_14_section_3.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP30000365-TPXREF126
Use an ellipsis in the name of a button or menu item when the associated
action:
...
Is performed by the user in a separate window or dialog.
For example, Preferences, Customize
Toolbar, and Send Feedback all use an ellipsis because they open a window
(potentially in another application, such as a browser) or a dialog in
which the user sets preferences, customizes the toolbar, or sends feedback.
http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/kevinmcguire/2007/10/12/ellipsis-for-eclipses/To
see why such commands must include an ellipsis, consider that the absence
of an ellipsis implies that the application performs the action for the
user. If, for example, the Send Feedback command did not include an
ellipsis, it would imply that feedback is generated and sent automatically
by the application.
The Apple guideline is simpler and basically
states that if a new window results than you should use ellipsis. It
specifically calls out Preferences and iTunes indeed has "Edit"->"Preferences...".
One plus of the Apple guideline is that there is no ambuiguity. Another
argument is that it more closely matches what we generally do, although
this may be through a lack of knowledge of the Windows guideline. However,
easier to interpret guidelines IS helpful for Eclipse.
Additional Reading
- The bug that started it all, regarding "Reset
Perspective": https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=205521
- My blog entry on the subject: http://dev.eclipse.org/blogs/kevinmcguire/2007/10/12/ellipsis-for-eclipses/
Summary
So the questions are:
1. Did we correctly
interpret the Vista/XP guidelines?
2. Should we
always stick to the Vista/XP guidelines in the absence of something Eclipse
specific which wouldn't be covered by them? (e.g. our view stacks)
3. Or do we
in this particular case (and possibly future ones) pick the Apple guideline?
Reasons for doing so are that it matches more closely what we already do,
or that its easier for people to interpret.
Ladies and gentlemen, the facts are before you. Your verdict?
Kevin
Bob Fraser <bfraser@xxxxxxx>
Sent by: ui-best-practices-working-group-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
04/28/2008 04:31 PM
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Subject
| [ui-best-practices-working-group] Reminder:
Conference Call: Wednesday, April 30th, 17:00 UTC or 10:00 PDT. Call 613.287.8000
or 866.362.7064 passcode 892048# |
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Conference Call: Wednesday, April 30th, 17:00 UTC or 10:00 PDT. Call
613.287.8000 or 866.362.7064 passcode 892048#
Agenda so far:
- Update on UI top ten "Don't do" list
- Discussion on use of ellipses
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