Kevin,
I refined the columns "In EE8" and "Issue".
Previously the "yes" value about EE8 was really just for the automatic-module-name declarations, because the others are fine, now it indicates it for all of them, the module-info was there for all in EE8, so "yes" means it was in EE8, "no" means it wasn’t and the empty lines mean it does not apply or matter because there is no module entry.
Similar for "Issue", "no" means nothing should be changed while "yes" means there is a problem either an outdated value like "java.*" or it would break the naming convention.
That makes it easy, 8 have an issue, 4 of them were in Jakarta EE 8 already, so they must be resolved, the other 4 could be deleted if that’s easier.
12 specs are good to go already.
Werner
Kevin,
Empty so far means "no". As there are not too many that apply.
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
Werner,
Can you determine the yes/no answer for Column E for every existing module name in either Column B or C? Right now, I can't tell if a blank is "no" or if it means you haven't been able to figure it out yet. Thanks! Once we have that information, then I think we've answered Ed's question and we're ready to make a call about which direction we go with this.
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect @ IBM
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
From: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx>
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>, Kevin Sutter <sutter@xxxxxxxxxx>, JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions <jakartaee-spec-project-leads@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 07/24/2020 15:35
Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: [jakartaee-platform-dev][jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE9
Yes, check
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g8jYG0JixO3wzZkpeyU1LMIQRhbnZ76kGtdMFE8mieE/edit?usp=sharing
there are 8 specs with a proposed new name in column D. 4 must change because the modules existed in Java/Jakarta EE 8 already (see column E)
The other 4 strictly applying Option F could simply get rid of their automatic-module-name, resolving inconsistencies like ".api"in most of them, that violates the naming convention from the Java SE spec recommending the top level package as a module.
Werner
From: Ed Bratt
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 18:59
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions; Kevin Sutter; JakartaEE Spec Project Leadership discussions
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev][jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE9
Do we know which Specs. or API definitions need to change for Option F?
-- Ed
On 7/24/2020 4:57 AM, Kevin Sutter wrote:
Just a quick follow-up. In the referenced google doc, we're leaning towards Option F as the answer for Jakarta EE 9:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LAAHKPJyREky9fEKv0xFd9IRDgXB58It53ryfyrNPtg/edit#heading=h.98ncyfi7x77e
If this approaches causes extreme discomfort with any of the Specification Projects, please speak up. Thank you!
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect @ IBM
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
From: Anthony Vanelverdinghe <dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx>, jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Kevin Sutter <sutter@xxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 07/24/2020 06:39
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev][jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE9
Hi Werner
The purpose of `Automatic-Module-Name` is to allow top-down migration to modules, i.e. fix the module name ahead of proper modularization such that other projects can reliably refer to it. So yes, I agree that changing it afterwards defeats the purpose.
However, I believe the disclaimer is justified in this case, since I read it as: "Some component specs have already defined module names. However, those names were never endorsed by the platform and are inconsistent with one another. In a future version of the platform, a naming convention will be established, and any existing module names will be updated to comply with it."
So as I see it, some specs made a promise about their module name, even though they weren't entitled to do so (though I understand they did so out of necessity). So it's the platform's right to update the module name if needed.
Kind regards,
Anthony
On 23/07/2020 23:56, Werner Keil wrote:
Anthony,
Spring is Pretty clear on "stable language-level modules”
https://docs.spring.io/spring/docs/current/spring-framework-reference/overview.html
and it isn’t even an official standard, just popular, so for an actual standard we should regard that kind of stability even higher.
What I would envision for the spec is not much more than the few sentences in the Spring docu.
I see no problem with the top-most package, in fact it would even work for Websocket where the groupId is used by https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/websocket-api/tree/master/api/server/src/main/java/jakarta/websocket/serverand client.
Some like Authorization only changed the "javax.* " to "jakarta.security.jacc", if they wold do the same for the automatic-module-name, then why not.
If a future version went to change that, sure why shouldn’t a module change but in general the modules should aim to be stable until they get broken down into smaller modules, e.g. CDI or it was discussed with JPA whether or not a "Light" module could be used by NoSQL.
Then it could be justified to change that, but not just for the sake of changing so soon after the "Big Bang".
Werner
From: Anthony Vanelverdinghe
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 23:42
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions; Werner Keil; Kevin Sutter
Cc: Jakarta specification committee
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev][jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE9
The listed specs all define the module name I'd expect them to have (assuming that `java.servlet` will be changed to `jakarta.servlet` for Jakarta EE 9), so I don't foresee further changes for them.
W.r.t. dependent projects, I doubt that many of them actually depend on the module name (e.g. in my experience, Spring Boot apps run with everything on the classpath). Either way, changing the module name would be much less disruptive than the current package name changes.
For Java modules, the typical naming convention is to use the root package (also see [1]).
[1] https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/jakartaee-platform/issues/174
Kind regards,
Anthony
On 23/07/2020 22:27, Werner Keil wrote:
IMO
The "existence" of modules may change, but frankly speaking especially for the Top 5 Jakarta EE 8 specs with modules
changing the name of either of them would be extremely bad for the image and adoption of Jakarta EE.
We spent a lot of time on "namespaces" or naming conventions, therefore those that already have modules better not drop them or suddenly change them if up to 1000 projects including heavyweights like Spring Boot include them, and that way Ten if not Hundreds of Thousands of apps and services may depend on those names.
Writing a few sentences like the module name where present shall reflect the Maven groupId (except for EL or JSP all others do, Websocket is the only special case because it has a Client and Server module) or if everyone thought that would be better the artifactId (in such case every module shall NOW end with ".api” and not change between Jakarta EE 9 and 9.1 or 10) is really no effort compared to the hours we already spent on XML schema that many specs have absolutely no use for.
Werner
From: Anthony Vanelverdinghe
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 21:48
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions; Kevin Sutter
Cc: Jakarta specification committee
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev][jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE 9
To me, this is essential:
(We will still need some type of disclaimer in the Platform Spec that indicates not to count on the Module Names for Jakarta EE 9 -- they will be changing in the future when we properly support JPMS Modules.)
And with such a disclaimer in place, it doesn't really matter which option is chosen, even "do as you wish" would work (of the defined ones, I'd go with F though).
Also, Jakarta EE 9.1 should solely be about Jakarta EE on Java SE 11 *on the classpath* (i.e. the modulepath only contains the Java SE modules; anything else is on the classpath), so module names would still not matter.
As I see it, bringing Java modules into the platform is a vast topic, and is thus unrealistic to do in Jakarta EE 9.1.
PS: since JPMS still seems pretty popular in conversations about Java modules: https://twitter.com/mreinhold/status/994669659029999616
Kind regards,
Anthony
On 23/07/2020 19:56, Kevin Sutter wrote:
I can still appreciate Tibor's statements though -- we need to quit adding work, no matter how small of an effort, if we want to meet our goals of delivering Jakarta EE 9 this fall. Thanks, Tibor.
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect @ IBM
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
From: Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx>
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions <jakartaee-platform-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Jakarta specification committee <jakarta.ee-spec.committee@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 07/23/2020 11:47
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE 9
Sent by: jakartaee-platform-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
That’s not correct, because whereever the definitions of modules like " java.servlet", "java.json", etc. existed in Jakarta EE 8 this must also be changed just like the packages.
See
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g8jYG0JixO3wzZkpeyU1LMIQRhbnZ76kGtdMFE8mieE/edit?usp=sharing
Maybe Scott was a bit ahead of himself sending it to ALL project leads, but especially those that already had a module declaration in Jakarta EE 8 and have not changed that to "jakarta.*" must also do that.
Those with a wrong automatic module name could also be "lazy" and simply remove that, I don’t think any full module-info wasn’t changed or newly introduced correctly, and especially those must not be destroyed because many of them like Activation are used in other specs like Mail, so IMO we could throw those options at them if that is what Scott suggested, but not sure, if the project leads may vote or if they should simply apply them, Option F is the preferred one by the Spec Committee and also what I mentioned here.
Only 8 specs would have to do anything, of these at least 4 already had modules defined in Jakarta EE 8, so they should leave them under the new namespace, the others could also just remove the automatic declaration.
Werner
From: Tibor Digana
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 18:00
To: jakartaee-platform developer discussions
Cc: Jakarta specification committee
Subject: Re: [jakartaee-platform-dev] [jakarta.ee-spec.committee][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakartaEE 9
Our goal was to change the license and rename the Java packages. Please do not prolong the work with more ambitions.
Dňa št 23. 7. 2020, 16:48 Scott Stark <starksm64@xxxxxxxxx> napísal(a):
I sent an email to the project leads list asking for feedback in the comments section of the doc that I just added.
On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 4:32 AM Werner Keil <werner.keil@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks a lot, that might make it easier to decide.
Werner
Sent from Mailfor Windows 10
From: Scott Stark
Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 03:00
To: Jakarta specification committee
Cc: jakartaee-platform developer discussions
Subject: Re: [jakarta.ee-spec.committee] [jakartaee-platform-dev][jakarta.ee-spec][jakartaee-spec-project-leads]AutomaticModuleNamesinJakarta EE 9
Now there are 6 options in the "Proposals for Handling of Automatic-Module-Name header in Jakarta EE 9" document after merging changes suggested by Kevin and Werner.
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