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Re: [jakarta.ee-community] [External] : Re: [jakartabatch-dev] Proposal - Use Java 11 source/target level for Batch 2.1 
Hi Reza,
I often use Jakarta Mail as an example of the specification project which does not want to be fully based on SE 17 or even SE 11 yet but is willing to support them to certain extent at the same time - produced binary needs to be able to run on SE 8. The reason is that it has a lot of customers on Android, thus it is required to still support at least Java SE 8. The support for Java SE 7 was dropped in the version 2 of the specification (EE 9) and this came at the price of dropping support for ~10% Android devices available out there - if I'm reading the table correctly[1]. 
  Given Mail depends on Activation, the same applies there.
...so these are 2 APIs with corresponding implementations which do need to be more conservative if they want to stay relevant in an Android space. 

thanks,
--lukas

[1]: https://apilevels.com/

On 12/3/21 12:30 PM, Reza Rahman wrote:
Thanks certainly for the clarification. What would be really great is a cogent rationale for why we didn’t just baseline on Java SE 17 outright.
Was it because some implementations are just more conservative in terms of their Java SE version support? What was the compelling value of using Java SE 11 as the baseline? Was the issue that a jump from Java SE 8 to 17 felt like it was “skipping” Java SE 11? Does Java SE 17 deprecate something that makes it harder to baseline on?
I have to say part of the confusion for me personally is that while I see plenty of people saying Java SE 8 is good enough for them, I don’t see much enthusiasm for Java SE 11 as a release as compared with Java SE 17. Surely I must be missing a perspective? 

Reza Rahman
Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker
Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual community member and do not reflect the views of my employer. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* jakarta.ee-community <jakarta.ee-community-bounces@eclipseorg> on behalf of Ivar Grimstad <ivar.grimstad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
*Sent:* Friday, December 3, 2021 2:25 AM
*To:* Jakarta EE community discussions
*Subject:* Re: [jakarta.ee-community] [jakartabatch-dev] Proposal - Use Java 11 source/target level for Batch 2.1 
Hi,
The "grumbling" often comes from how it is presented. I suggest referring to the attached image (or similar) when faced with the grumbling.
Even if the APIs themselves are restricted to Java SE 11 on source and binary level, we are ensuring that the TCK can be run on Java SE 17. 

That means that
- implementations can (and most certainly will) certify on Java SE 17 as well as Java SE 11 - which in turn means that applications can be compiled and run on Java SE 17 to take advantage of the performance optimizations between 11 and 17 - developers can use all the Java SE 17 features they like in their applications, such as switch expressions, records, and text blocks
So, I would claim that Jakarta EE 10 /supports/ Java SE 17. The requirement that the TCK must run with 17 ensures that. 

Ivar
On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 2:44 AM Scott Stark <starksm64@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:starksm64@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote: 

    The JavaSE baseline issue is decided for EE10. Here is a summary of
    the vote that concluded on June 29 2021 that I have added to the
    platform dev issue for this topic:
    https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/jakartaee-platform/issues/331
    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/eclipse-ee4j/jakartaee-platform/issues/331__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!aa4C3QDqPvV9XoXXwI195SvhIXIqUveFgW_xz39ZyfkiPSR7-IETV3RoxuVbUj-uX-o$>

    For further background you can read the minutes and platform dev
    threads in the preceding months.

    --- Summary:

    To wrap up this issue, the thread for the vote on the SE version is:
    https://www.eclipse.org/lists/jakartaee-platform-dev/msg02650.html
    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.eclipse.org/lists/jakartaee-platform-dev/msg02650.html__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!aa4C3QDqPvV9XoXXwI195SvhIXIqUveFgW_xz39ZyfkiPSR7-IETV3RoxuVbcls98Bs$>

    The ballot summary spreadsheet is:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bu6IhGASVapXXaQix8HaED4JYx4UDj9eLEsjCP-7ddA/edit#gid=0
    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Bu6IhGASVapXXaQix8HaED4JYx4UDj9eLEsjCP-7ddA/edit*gid=0__;Iw!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!aa4C3QDqPvV9XoXXwI195SvhIXIqUveFgW_xz39ZyfkiPSR7-IETV3RoxuVbBMpaJdw$>

    This was a contingent vote
    (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_vote
    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contingent_vote__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!aa4C3QDqPvV9XoXXwI195SvhIXIqUveFgW_xz39ZyfkiPSR7-IETV3RoxuVbfxWQnos$>),
    and a summary of tally of votes amongst the 3 choices is provided
    below as a chart. The three choices were:

    Opt1: Java SE 11 as source/language level and binary level for all
    API jars. Compatible implementations are free to pass TCKs using any
    Java SE version at 11 or higher.

    Opt2: Java SE 11 as source/language level and Java SE 17 as binary
    level for all API jars. Compatible implementations are free to pass
    TCKs using any Java SE version at 17 or higher. Opt3. Java SE 17 as
    source/language level and binary level for all API jars. Compatible
    implementations are free to pass TCKs using any Java SE version at
    17 or higher.

    Opt3: Java SE 17 as source/language level and binary level for all
    API jars. Compatible implementations are free to pass TCKs using any
    Java SE version at 17 or higher.

    <<See JavaSE_vote.svg>>

    The X axis in this chart gives the count of the first, second and
    third choices grouped by all votes, and committer only votes. The
    three bars in each section give the count for Opt1(green),
    Opt2(blue), Opt3(orange)

    C1_all = the first choice tallies across all votes
    C1_com = the first choice tallies for only committers
    C2_all = the second choice tallies across all votes
    C2_com = the second choice tallies for only committers
    C3_all = the third choice tallies across all votes
    C3_com = the third choice tallies for only committers

    There were 36 votes in total, 12 committers, 24 non-committers. By
    the rules of the contingent vote, there was a clear majority of
    first choices for Opt1 regardless of whether committer votes counted
    or all votes counted, and so only the first choice votes needed to
    be considered.

    ---

    On Dec 2, 2021 at 6:47:36 PM, Reza Rahman <reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx
    <mailto:reza_rahman@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:


    I think this is fine.

    This is a bit of an aside but not sure if you would like to
    consider it:

    I am hearing a lot of grumbling about Jakarta EE 10 not
    base-lining on Java SE 17 while keeping Java SE 11 and Java SE 8
    optional. The precedent for Java EE had been that it always
    supported the newest Java SE version possible at the time of
    finalization of a release. This expectation could be a possible
    source of the grumbling.

    I am curious to see if others have opinions on this?

    Reza Rahman
    Jakarta EE Ambassador, Author, Blogger, Speaker

    Please note views expressed here are my own as an individual
    community member and do not reflect the views of my employer.

    On 12/2/2021 11:50 AM, Scott Kurz wrote:


    We need to decide what Java level to target for Batch 2.1.   Java
    11 is the recommendation for the EE 10 platform, however since we
    still have not added any new APIs at this point we could still
    decide to go with our Java 8 level binaries from 2.0.
    (This option is outlined in the platform release plan:
    https://eclipse-ee4j.github.io/jakartaee-platform/jakartaee10/JakartaEE10ReleasePlan
    <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://eclipse-ee4j.github.io/jakartaee-platform/jakartaee10/JakartaEE10ReleasePlan__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!aa4C3QDqPvV9XoXXwI195SvhIXIqUveFgW_xz39ZyfkiPSR7-IETV3RoxuVbUqBXcHk$> )

    I propose we use Java 11 for source/target to stay in synch with
    the platform.    If a user wants to remain on Java 8 they can
    just use the existing 2.0 API JAR.

    Note in terms of language features I'm not sure we depend on
    anything more than Java 6 ?? still.

    Any objections?

    If not, then, to add a bit of a further thought, I think we end
    up with this table worth keeping in mind:


    Language Features:  Java 6?
    javac target:  Java 11
    TCK execution:   Java 11 + 17

    Thanks,
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Scott Kurz
    WebSphere / Open Liberty Batch and Developer Experience
    skurz@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:skurz@xxxxxxxxxx>
    --------------------------------------------------------


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--

Ivar Grimstad
Jakarta EE Developer Advocate | *Eclipse Foundation *Eclipse Foundation <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.eclipse.org/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!aa4C3QDqPvV9XoXXwI195SvhIXIqUveFgW_xz39ZyfkiPSR7-IETV3RoxuVb4k3y4xk$>- Community. Code. Collaboration. 


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