Just to understand the decision better: Who has any actual benefit
(and which one) from the empty PDFs? What actually would have happened
if we would have waited with announcing Jakarta EE 8 to be finished
until the PDFs legal situation were cleared?
I talk to lots of users and nobody can find this benefit.
-Markus
*Von:*Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 12. September 2019 22:37
*An:* Jakarta EE community discussions; Markus KARG
*Betreff:* Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8 Specs in PDF
I completely agree with you about the risk.
We decided, as a compromise, to accept this risk so that we could
release Jakarta EE 8 sooner. Perhaps you would've chosen to wait
until all the specification documents were available; we decided that
releasing sooner was worth the risk.
As several of us have said, the Jakarta EE specs can't say that the
JCP specs are in any way required because of the different licenses
involved.
We will fix this problem and eliminate this risk, almost certainly for
the next release of the specs. In the mean time we're depending on
the good faith of all involved, knowing what our future intention is,
to provide successful and compatible implementations of the Jakarta EE
specs.
Theoretically, this is a horrible situation to be in. Practically, I
don't expect any serious problems. If you see serious problems
developing, please let us know.
Thanks.
Markus KARG wrote on 9/12/19 10:55 AM:
The problem is that now you have a different risk: Incompatible
implementations. The reason is simple: The TCKs and APIs do not
cover 100% of the rules laid out in the specs, so it now is
possible to define an implementation as compliant with a spec,
which actually is not. This risk is true at least for Jakarta REST
as we already knew upfront of Jakarta EE several inconsistencies
among API, TCK, spec and implementations that in fact do exist. We
wanted to fix that, but where asked to not do fix it. And as
certifications cannot be undone, we now started with a worst-case
scenario: Having certified existing products against non-existent
rules. Thanks! ;-(
*Von:*jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] *Im Auftrag von
*Steve Millidge (Payara)
*Gesendet:* Donnerstag, 12. September 2019 10:50
*An:* Jakarta EE community discussions
*Betreff:* Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8 Specs in PDF
There are good legal reasons that the new specifications don’t
point to the old specifications as this provides a clean,
licensed, stand alone document to begin development from.
In particular the new specifications are under a different license
the EFSL https://www.eclipse.org/legal/efsl.php. If they
referenced the requirements in the JCP documents then any user of
the Jakarta specification would also be required to read the JCP
document which has a different “click wrap” license which the user
would then be required to accept and comply with. There was then
a risk that this would require any Jakarta EE licensee to also
become a Java EE licensee.
IANAL
Steve
*From:*jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
<jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> *On Behalf Of
*Werner Keil
*Sent:* 12 September 2019 08:49
*To:* Jakara EE community discussions
<jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject:* Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8 Specs in PDF
Kevin,
Thanks for the suggestions, I assume it'll help Markus or others
in spec projects to point to the old specs till the new ones get
beefed up or where they could not for some reason.
Markus,
I also have customers or agencies that still ask for J2EE
experience after all these years. ;-)
I stopped trying to correct them, but others who follow trends and
new technologies or even try to shape them won't.
We also see too many people who try to errect Confederate statues
or deny the Holocaust or Climate Change, we should not make the
same mistakes but rather look in the future.
Werner
Kevin Sutter <sutter@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:sutter@xxxxxxxxxx>>
schrieb am Do., 12. Sep. 2019, 09:07:
Markus,
Until the rest of the Specifications are contributed to
Eclipse (soon, I hear...), why not just update your "front
page" (wiki, gh pages, README, whatever) to point at the JCP
page for background information? This could be a temporary
stop gap until the Spec source is made available to you.
Also, Bill's comments (and everybody else on the Spec
Committee) on the content of the skeletal specifications was
to ensure consistency. If we provided a common template with
common, consistent content (project name, scope statement,
copyright, license, etc), then Jakarta EE will look and feel
like a finished product. If we let every component do their
own thing, then it would just look like a hodge-podge of
information and would not provide the professional view that
we have. You may not agree, and that's fine. But, we were
doing this for a reason. Thanks.
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:sutter@xxxxxxxxxx>
Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
From: "Markus KARG" <markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:markus@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
To: "'Jakarta EE community discussions'"
<jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: 09/12/2019 06:20 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8
Specs in PDF
Sent by: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that. The question is, how shall the reader of the
Jakarte EE 8 spec know?
*Von:*Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx] *
Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 11. September 2019 23:08*
An:* Jakarta EE community discussions; Markus KARG*
Betreff:* Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8 Specs in PDF
As Werner said, all the specs are on the JCP web site. You
can find a list of all the specs and links to the JSRs on the
Java EE Platform web site
<https://javaee.github.io/javaee-spec/Specifications>or
Oracle's Java EE web site
<https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/java-ee-glance.html#javaee8>.
Markus KARG wrote on 9/11/19 11:06 AM:
Actually it is hard for Jakarte EE 8 spec readers to find the
Java EE 8 specs. The reason is that Bill Shannon (IIRC)
enforced that existing references form the boilerplate specs
to the Java EE specs have to get removed -- so we removed
them, at least for JAX-RS. It is rather funny that now you
say, people shall read exactly those specs… How shall they
locate them?
-Markus
*Von:*jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>[mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
*Im Auftrag von *Kevin Sutter*
Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 11. September 2019 10:59*
An:* Jakarta EE community discussions*
Betreff:* Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8 Specs in PDF
Arjan is correct. We have complete Specifications for the
Platform, Web Profile, CDI, and Bean Validation. The rest of
the Components have these skeletal specifications and rely on
the Javadoc for Jakarta EE 8. These other Specifications will
be filed as they complete their copyright and IP clearances.
We decided it was best to go this route instead of waiting for
all of the Component specs to clear. Appreciate your patience.
I covered some of these process-related items in my "Jakarta
for dummEEs" talk yesterday at the JakartaOne Livestream
conference. Replays are available:_
_https://www.crowdcast.io/e/nztuljys/1
---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Jakarta EE architect
e-mail: sutter@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:sutter@xxxxxxxxxx>
Twitter: @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter
From: arjan tijms <arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:arjan.tijms@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Jakarta EE community discussions
<jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 09/11/2019 09:34 AM
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [jakarta.ee-community] Jakarta EE 8
Specs in PDF
Sent by: jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jakarta.ee-community-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,
It's "correct" in the sense that the real spec documents
haven't been transferred yet. The current ones that are
released (most of them) are just the bare minimum. We call
them boilerplate specs.
We expect that sometime in the future the existing Java EE
spec documents or a subset of those will be transferred.
Kind regards,
Arjan
On Wed, Sep 11, 2019 at 4:30 PM Gregor Kovač <kovica@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:kovica@xxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi!
Specs are available at https://jakarta.ee/specifications/
"Jakarta EE Platform 8" has 242 pages, but "Jakarta Enterprise
Beans 3.2" has only 5 pages. Am I missing something? Looking
in a wrong place, ... ?
Best regards,
Kovi
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