Thanks Aleksandar and
Martin for providing the details of the decision. I'd like to capture
this info in a wiki page to refer users to when Neon releases; any
suggestion on a good place in the wiki for this to live? I looked at the
"Eclipse_Project" category
(https://wiki.eclipse.org/Category:Eclipse_Project) but didn't see an
obvious good home there; it also wasn't clear that the content there is
very up-to-date.
Eric
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Oberhuber" <Martin.Oberhuber@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Eclipse Packaging Project" <epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, 18 August, 2015 6:19:36 PM
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Hi Eric, all –
Since I was part of the Eclipse Platform PMC decision moving to Java 8, I
briefly wanted to mention some reasons for that decision:
- Java 8 is available today on all major Platforms – including Linux-ARM for
example – and by multiple JRE vendors. In terms of security fixes, it’s
safer than Java 7 (TLSv1.2 for example is only enabled in Java 8 by
default).
- By the time Neon ships, Java 8 will be 2 years old (so one can’t call that
bleeding edge J )
- Finally, Java 8 introduces some interesting new language features which
some contributors can’t wait using. This is a difference compared to Java 7
which just updated the libraries but not the language. It’s true we have to
cater to users, but we also have to cater to the contributors. If the
Eclipse Platform starts looking old-fashioned and lame (and forbidding new
language features puts us at risk of looking so), we’d risk losing
contributors (which the Platform really needs).
It's worth mentioning also that what pulled the trigger was Eclipse Help system which relies on Jetty and it requires Java 8 in it's latest (and safest) release.
Alexander Kurtakov
Red Hat Eclipse team
So, this decision was not about giving developers any toys, but it was
carefully weighing in on the aspects mentioned above. While some (hopefully
few) might struggle with this decision, we hope that the benefit outweighs
the itches.
See also the Aug5 meeting notes here: https://wiki.eclipse.org/Eclipse/PMC
Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber , SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools, Wind River
direct +43.662.457915.85 fax +43.662.457915.6
From: epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On
Behalf Of Lars Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 11:28 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Hi Eric and all,
FYI - the platform PMC decided to also move to Java 8 for Neon, Dani just
announced it on cross.
Best regards, Lars
On Thu, Jul 30, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Eric Rizzo < eclipse-mail@xxxxxxxxxxxx >
wrote:
I'm not an EPP package maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some
user-community perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
(especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on many
years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many
complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment where
users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say it's highly
likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least have to jump
through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep everyone
focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are enamored and
in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify pushing them down
the throats of our large user base.
Eric
Lars Vogel
July 30, 2015 1:52 PM
Hi,
I noticed yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
request. I contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
an email to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in Neon.
I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:
- Java 7 is out of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this would bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.
In Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
API via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
not yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
requires Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
system to Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
this list, visit
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--
Eclipse Platform UI and e4 project co-lead
CEO vogella GmbH
Haindaalwisch 17a, 22395 Hamburg
Amtsgericht Hamburg: HRB 127058
Geschäftsführer: Lars Vogel, Jennifer Nerlich de Vogel
USt-IdNr.: DE284122352
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_______________________________________________
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epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from
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_______________________________________________
epp-dev mailing list
epp-dev@xxxxxxxxxxx
To change your delivery options, retrieve your password, or unsubscribe from this list, visit
https://dev.eclipse.org/mailman/listinfo/epp-dev
Hi
Eric, all –
Since
I was part of the Eclipse Platform PMC decision moving to Java 8, I
briefly wanted to mention some reasons for that decision:
-
Java
8 is available today on all major Platforms – including Linux-ARM for
example – and by multiple JRE vendors. In terms of security fixes, it’s
safer than Java 7 (TLSv1.2 for example is only enabled in Java 8 by
default).
-
By
the time Neon ships, Java 8 will be 2 years old (so one can’t call that
bleeding edge
J)
-
Finally,
Java 8 introduces some interesting new language features which some
contributors can’t wait using. This is a difference compared to Java
7 which just updated the libraries but not the language. It’s true we
have to cater to users, but we also have to cater to the contributors.
If the Eclipse Platform starts looking old-fashioned and lame (and
forbidding new language features puts us at risk
of looking so), we’d risk losing contributors (which the Platform
really needs).
So,
this decision was not about giving developers any toys, but it was
carefully weighing in on the aspects mentioned above. While some
(hopefully few) might
struggle with this decision, we hope that the benefit outweighs the
itches.
See
also the Aug5 meeting notes here:
https://wiki.eclipse.org/Eclipse/PMC
Thanks,
Martin
--
Martin Oberhuber,
SMTS / Product Owner – Development Tools,
Wind
River
direct
+43.662.457915.85 fax +43.662.457915.6
From:
epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:epp-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx]
On Behalf Of Lars Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 17, 2015 11:28 PM
To: Eclipse Packaging Project
Subject: Re: [epp-dev] Minimum BREE for EPP Neon
Hi Eric and all,
FYI - the platform PMC
decided to also move to Java 8 for Neon, Dani just announced it on
cross.
Hi Eric and all,
FYI
- the platform PMC decided to also move to Java 8 for Neon, Dani just
announced it on cross.
Best regards, Lars
I'm not an EPP package
maintainer or committer, but I'd like to provide some user-community
perspective on this.
Java 8 is just over 1 year old, and it's well known that many people and
(especially) corporations are slow to adopt new versions. If Eclipse
packages were to require Java 8, I can pretty much guarantee, based on
many years' experience supporting the community, that there will be many
complaints and confused users. In fact, in a corporate environment
where users literally can not update their own workstations, I'd say
it's highly likely that users would be unable to use Neon, or at least
have to jump through corporate IT hoops to get it working.
I'm not knocking Java 8 (at least not here), I'm just trying to keep
everyone focused on the users. Just because we, as tool developers, are
enamored and in love with the latest toys doesn't mean we can justify
pushing them down the throats of our large user base.
Eric
Hi,
I noticed
yesterday that m2e moved to Java 8, which triggered this
request. I
contacted Markus Knauer and he suggested that I should send
an email
to this list to trigger the discussion about BREE for the
EPP's in
Neon.
I personally think it would be great to require Java 8 as
BREE for the
EPP out of the following reasons:
- Java 7 is out
of public maintenance
- if the EPP's decide early that they will
require Java 8, other
project will have the option to improve their
code base based on Java
8
- if m2e requires Java 8, AFAIK this
would bump the most important
EPP's also to Java 8.
In
Platform UI I would also like to support the Java 8 Date and Time
API
via Databinding, which would also bump platform to Java 8. This is
not
yet implement but on our roadmap. AFAIK the Jetty webserver also
requires
Java 8, which would result in a bump in the Eclipse Help
system to
Java 8.
Best regards, Lars
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