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Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?

Bill,

 

this will be my last posting regarding our current dispute. I honour your opinion but this thread has gone way off-topic and I think it leads to nowhere.

 

I am totally fine with the PMC providing *recommendations* but not with *constraints*. But in the past I read too often the words "we will do this or that" or "projects MUST do this or that" from PMC *members* where I think these phrases were inappropriate or incompatible with the committer's self-governance. That's when I chimed in, and I still will do in future, even if it is annoying. Otherwise it would look like silently agreeing.

 

Also I *do* have evidence that PMC members sometimes either forgot about some EDP rules or ignored them deliberately: You (!) wrote today that PMC member David Blevins violated the EDP by releasing EJB to Maven Central without a release review. Just as one example.

 

Regarding my view of "community", not only that I am a volunteer committer, I'm also a democratically elected speaker of several ten thousand Java coders, as I officially vice-represent the iJUG in the Eclipse Foundation. I doubt this is "too limited". I simply have a complete *different* view angle of the word "community". I doubt we share a congruent vision, that's a difference to "being limited".

 

Anyways, let's close this thread, as it is off-topic and leads to nowhere. The political differences are already known (I told months ago that I request that the PMC abstains from top-down decisions and request bottom-up committer ballotting on every question that deals with source code and build chain) and besides that all arguments are already said (in particular here: committers shall decide about tagging, not PMC members).

 

So let's act professional and just end here.

 

-Markus

 

 

From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Donnerstag, 1. November 2018 19:33
To: EE4J PMC Discussions; Markus KARG
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?

 

I think you're confused about what the PMC is doing.  I don't think it's trying to dictate anything.  I do hope it's trying to show leadership for these projects, and I wish it would do more of that.  It doesn't need to enforce anything to be a leader.  As we well know, the only enforcement possible is through the grievance process.

I don't see how continuing to remind the public of your view is helping anything.  You've shown no evidence that the PMC is working against your view, and every time you've brought up your issue you've been assured that the PMC supports your view.  I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish that is not already happening.

If you're unhappy with the very limited guidance the PMC is providing, suggest some different guidance that it should provide, or explain why its guidance doesn't apply to your project and why your project needs to do something different.  It's ok, we don't all have to be the same.

If you're unhappy with the mere fact that the PMC is providing guidance to anyone, you're in the wrong place.  As has been explained, this is well within the role of the PMC.  Having a set of shared values and conventions is part of being a community.  If you believe the shared values and conventions should only apply within individual projects, and not span all the projects under EE4J, then I think your view of community is way too limited.

Markus KARG wrote on 11/01/2018 11:05 AM:

Bill,

 

your questions point in the wrong direction. The reason for our ongoing discussions is simply completely different views on EE4J governance. We will never find a concensus as we represent different political groups in this game. So why not stick with the status quo: I keep reminding the public of the view of the group I speak for, and the PMC may go on ignoring it and try to dictate things they *effectively* cannot enforce. ;-)

 

-Markus

 

 

From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 20:04
To: Markus KARG; 'EE4J PMC Discussions'
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?

 

Where did you think I suggested that the PMC should override self-governance of the committers?

Why do you think there's no value in the PMC offering advice to projects even if there's no way to enforce that projects follow the advice?  Why is it not possible that some projects would choose to follow the advice even if it is not forced on them?

Have you asked the PMC if they find your constant reminders helpful?  Clearly you must be doing this because you think it is helpful.  What if it is not?  Would you continue doing it?


Markus KARG wrote on 10/31/2018 11:42 AM:

There is another misunderstanding. The PMC's role of "oversight" is to guarantee all subprojects stick to the EDP rules. It does not imply overriding self-governance of the committers at free will. Certainly you can ask for their advice in any other direction (just as you could ask anybody else), but without powers to enforce it, it is simply in vain as it is not enforceable.

 

As long as the PMC participates in discussions that fall into the self-governance of the subprojects without clearly marking the answer as personal opinion or being non-authoritative, I doubt that all PMC members have fully understood where the PMC's powers end and the self-governance of the sub-projects start. And as long as that is the case, I will be the scapegoat that reminds everybody.

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure the PMC is mature enough to tell me directly when they have the impression that they can leave incubation state.

 

-Markus

 

From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 19:18
To: Markus KARG; 'EE4J PMC Discussions'
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?

 

The PMC is supposed to provide oversight for all the projects, that's why I'm looking for their advice.  If the PMC wants to turn this into a poll of all Committers, that's fine with me.

And I'm sure the PMC already knows well what they can and can not do, you don't need to keep reminding them. I've seen no evidence that they've been acting against the EDP.  If you see such evidence, you should take it up with them directly.

Markus KARG wrote on 10/31/2018 11:04 AM:



Bill,

 

once again you misunderstood my postings. I really do not tell you what *you* can do or not, I tell *the PMC* what they cannot do according to EF rules. I also want better inter-project collaboration, but *the PMC's* mailing list is the wrong place for reaching other projects. BTW, there is no such group like "ourselves" in the EF, there only is "the public", "the committers" and "the PMC members".

 

In fact you have my full support for better inter-project communication among the committers to reach all consistency wanted by committers. What I like to express simply is that the PMC is de jure not the right entity to reach this concensus, as the PMC has neither the power to enforce consistency in your questions unless technically needed, nor is it the inter-project communication area. So what will be the *effective* outcome? What you apparently strive for will de facto only be reached by asking the committers of all projects, not anybody else. You reach absolutely not what you want if the PMC says "yes, good idea" but some committers simply do not follow because they possibly have a different opinion.

 

Besides that, I will keep telling what the EDP says as long as I have the impression that it is either not understood or intentionally ignored.

 

-Markus

 

 

From: Bill Shannon [mailto:bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Mittwoch, 31. Oktober 2018 18:19
To: EE4J PMC Discussions; Markus KARG
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?

 

Markus, you really are not helping by continuing to repeat your mantra.

Some of us want to do things in a consistent way across the community.  Unless your goal is to force every project to be different, please just accept that you're allowed to do things differently in your projects, but some of the rest of us might want to do things the same way across multiple project, on purpose.  We're not going to tell you that you have to do things the same way, but please don't tell us that we can't conspire among ourselves to do things the same way.

Thanks.

Markus KARG wrote on 10/30/2018 11:07 PM:

I know Bill and others don't like to hear it anymore, but unless there is an urgent need to decide this topic by the PMC, according to the EDP this is up to each project to decide or even let the committer himself decide.

-Markus

 

From: ee4j-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:ee4j-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Kevin Sutter
Sent: Dienstag, 30. Oktober 2018 21:18
To: EE4J PMC Discussions
Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?

 

I agree.  We use annotated tags when releasing MicroProfile releases.  I think we should continue that practice with Jakarta EE.

---------------------------------------------------
Kevin Sutter
STSM, MicroProfile and Java EE architect
e-mail:  sutter@xxxxxxxxxx     Twitter:  @kwsutter
phone: tl-553-3620 (office), 507-253-3620 (office)    
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevinwsutter

ee4j-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote on 10/30/2018 01:28:54 PM:

> From: Raymond Auge <raymond.auge@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: ee4j-pmc@xxxxxxxxxxx
> Date: 10/30/2018 01:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [ee4j-pmc] git tags naming convention?
> Sent by: ee4j-pmc-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx
>
> I think having recourse to see _who_ created the tag (annotated
> tags) is more useful than not.
>
> - Ray
>
> On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 2:23 PM Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> (Apparently no one cares about this stuff but I'll ask anyway...)
>
> Assuming the PMC recommendation is to use just the version number as
> the tag, do people prefer git lightweight tags or git annotated tags?

> Ivar Grimstad wrote on 10/01/2018 10:43 PM:
> We have not defined any conventions for EE4J for this. Personally, I
> like naming the tag as the version number of the released artifact. 
>
> Should we define EE4J-wide conventions or just leave it to the projects?
>
> Ivar
>
> On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 12:58 AM Bill Shannon <bill.shannon@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Is there an EE4J-wide convention for how to name the git tags for
> releases of various sorts?
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