Re: AW: [e4-dev] Why XML UI is important for us

[David Orme <djo@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Yyves, Hallvars, Olivier, et all:

I also won't make it to ESE and just would like to chip in my support (that I've said before) for XWT on top of something EMF-based like TM or Wazabi.  

The sooner this is reconciled, the sooner potential customers can start to seriously download E4 and start kicking the tyres.


Best regards,

Dave Orme

On Tue, Oct 13, 2009 at 1:30 PM, <yves.yang@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Stefan and Patrick,

See my comment below.

> 2. XAML and WPF
> You mentioned tools based on XAML. Tools that I know about (as _expression_
> Blend) are based on XAML+WPF. That's a difference. I don't think that it
> makes sense to adopt WPF's widget model and even if one would do so, I
> doubt that using _expression_ Blend for designing Eclipse UIs would be
> possible.
>
> I agree that using existent standards is a desirable goal. However, in
> case of XAML I can only imagine of taking concepts and use them (examples
> mentioned above, maybe Binding syntax, too). Being 100 percent compatible
> is not realistic.

I understand the purpose of Patrick. I can give you another case. We are
working on ESL project http://www.eclipse.org.esl (knwon as eclipse4sl -
Eclipse tools for Microsoft Silverlight), which has an instant preview
editor. The same editor is already provided in XWT. We can image to
develop a common toolkit that works for for both just with different UI
model.

I agree with XWT can not be 100% compatible with WPF. It is exactly the
position we take by now. It is the different between XWT and eFace.

Thank both of you for giving the important feedback.

Best regards
Yves YANG

>
> Regards,
> Stefan.
>
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:e4-dev-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx] Im
> Auftrag von Patrick Paulin
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 13. Oktober 2009 19:19
> An: E4 Project developer mailing list
> Betreff: Re: [e4-dev] Why XML UI is important for us
>
> I'm glad to hear that the participants in this thread are going to get
> together at ESE and work through these issues. Meeting face to face
> often makes these discussions much easier :)
>
> Unfortunately I can't attend ESE, so I wanted to provide my input
> here. I hope you'll consider these points when you're making final
> decisions. In my opinion, there are really two questions here:
>
> 1. What should the default UI construction experience be for Eclipse
> developers?
> 2. How can we maximize the UI framework's power and flexibility to
> allow for future innovation?
>
> My answer to #1 is that the default UI mechanism should be standards-
> based and declarative. I've worked with and trained many RCP
> development teams. These teams often struggle to learn the many APIs
> that make up Eclipse RCP. The more we can incorporate familiar
> solutions into RCP, the easier it becomes for teams to adopt it. Many
> of the teams I talk to are very interested in declarative UIs, and I'd
> say that most of them would be very happy with XAML + CSS. Remember
> that this thread began with an RCP user saying how excited they would
> be with a declarative UI. Please listen to these users.
>
> Choosing XAML as the default developer experience also allows us to
> leverage existing resources. There are books on XAML. There are tools
> that work with XAML. Vendors will be more interested in creating new
> Eclipse tooling for XAML. .NET developers will be tempted to try RCP,
> and they might be able to migrate some of their existing UI elements
> as well. In short, we should always be looking at how to leverage
> existing standards to build momentum. This is what we did by adopting
> OSGi, and we should be looking to do the same thing in the UI space.
>
> But how do we address question #2? Well, saying that XAML is the story
> we tell developers new to RCP does not mean it has to be the only
> story. If we can back the declarative UI with an EMF model and this
> can be made transparent to most developers, I say we do it. If this
> makes possible competing approaches and tools for UI construction, so
> much the better. If the model evolves into a superset of what's
> provided by XAML, that's fine. But please let's start with the
> mechanism that developers already understand and work back from there.
>
> Like the RCP user that started this thread, I'm really excited about
> what's happening with e4 and I think it has the potential to
> drastically increase the number of developers using this technology.
> Keep up the great work!
>
> Thanks,
>
> --- Patrick
>
>
> Patrick Paulin
> Eclipse RCP/OSGi Trainer and Consultant
> Modular Mind, Ltd.
>
> patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxx
> 608.213.4169
> www.modumind.com
>
> twitter.com/pjpaulin
> linkedin.com/in/pjpaulin
>
>
>
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