| Re: [cn4j-alliance] MP apis and "graduation" to Jakarta EE |
Hi,I agree strongly with Steve. As expressed before, my key goals are to deliver a consistent Jakarta EE platform as well.Specifically +1 for MP to not further develop an API after it graduates to EE. Because of the CN4J alliance, and the fact that it's the same companies active in both MP and EE, continuing the development in EE shouldn't be an issue in practice for everyone involved.Currently, the EE APIs used in MP have to be developed in EE as well (Jakarta REST/JAX-RS, CDI, Jakarta JSON). Has that ever been a problem for MP? I think it hasn't.Kind regards,Arjan Tijms_______________________________________________On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 7:22 PM Steve Millidge (Payara) <steve.millidge@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:_______________________________________________We’ll likely have to agree to disagree on this then 😊 as one of my key goals for Jakarta EE is to deliver a consistent platform to the developer.
Some consequences if you retained the io.microprofile namespace when moving a spec to the Jakarta WG.
First MP WG would have to agree to not further develop the api.
Second it bakes api history into Jakarta EE. For example a new developer coming to Jakarta EE who knows or cares nothing for the history of MP Config needs to understand why the api isn’t in the jakarta namespace. I feel Jakarta EE has enough of these baked in history issues e.g. why JAX-RS annotations aren’t bean defining etc. etc. without adding more. Will that future developer thank you for not doing the extra work?
Steve
From: cn4j-alliance <cn4j-alliance-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Scott Stark
Sent: 18 January 2021 17:42
To: Discussions on formation of a CN4J Alliance with the MicroProfile Working Group <cn4j-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [cn4j-alliance] MP apis and "graduation" to Jakarta EE
Agreed, no reason to introduce extra work. The point of an alliance should be to allow for cross pollination without burdensome exercises like the javax to jakarta effort.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 11:26 AM Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think namespace updates lead to migration issues. When moving MP Config to Jakarta, the api jar maven coordinates would be updated. In this case, there is no necessary source code change required. In my opinion, any migration would potentially reduce productivity and we should minimize it. Surely we could do better than Java EE to Jakarta EE migration.
Thanks
Emily
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 4:44 PM Steve Millidge (Payara) <steve.millidge@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I would still prefer a namespace change in moving to jakarta.
First and mainly for branding. I think developers should know from the namespace whether they are using a MicroProfile spec or a Jakarta spec.
Second for governance. I think each group in the alliance should have full control of specifications in their namespace.
Steve
From: cn4j-alliance <cn4j-alliance-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Scott Stark
Sent: 18 January 2021 16:29
To: Discussions on formation of a CN4J Alliance with the MicroProfile Working Group <cn4j-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [cn4j-alliance] MP apis and "graduation" to Jakarta EE
A variation of what you propose Emily might be this; say we have a stable spec like config that we want Jakarta to start using. This spec is already in widespread use in both MP and EE containers. The current spec could transition to Jakarta without a fork to preserve the existing namespace.
If at some point in the future, a new incompatible config is needed, that could be started in MP and evolved under a new namespace.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 9:55 AM Scott Stark <starksm64@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
The spec has to live in a WG. CN4J is not a WG. Essentially you are arguing against the pull model and wanting to freeze the MP specification. At that point it might as well fork into Jakarta so the future maintenance occurs there. If at some point a new incompatible MP version is needed, it would need a new namespace.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 9:11 AM Emily Jiang <emijiang6@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I think we will run into headaches with forking very soon. When two similar technologies evolve at a different speed independently, we are creating new problems and confusions for our end users.
Here is what I thought that could work.
Since we have established CN4J, we can lift MP Config and a subset of its essential APIs and have them hosted by CN4J. No breaking changes are allowed in these APIs. In this case, Jakarta EE can rely on these APIs. MP also consumes these APIs and deprecates its own identical copy. There will be no circular dependencies either.
I think we should be cautious with what specs are moved there. We should only move the specs that are absolutely needed by Jakarta EE, such as Config.
Thanks
Emily
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 3:06 PM Steve Millidge (Payara) <steve.millidge@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Yes this is why moving a spec to the Jakarta namespace when adopted by Jakarta EE I believe is a necessity.
There doesn’t need to be a huge increase in effort if the alliance can agree that the specification is mature and future evolution should take place in Jakarta EE. The MP platform can then switch namespace for the specification at a future major.
I actually don’t think this will arise too often. I only see maybe 4 core MP specs that could move to Jakarta EE in the medium term.
Steve
From: cn4j-alliance <cn4j-alliance-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of Scott Stark
Sent: 18 January 2021 14:31
To: Discussions on formation of a CN4J Alliance with the MicroProfile Working Group <cn4j-alliance@xxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [cn4j-alliance] MP apis and "graduation" to Jakarta EE
Thinking about it more, this would set up the same situation we just when through with javax. When the compatibility of the MP spec is changed and the package is updated to jakarta, the next Jakarta release would have a change in namespace.
On Mon, Jan 18, 2021 at 7:53 AM Scott Stark <starksm64@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
By immediately forking any MP specification into Jakarta when there is a desire to use it in Jakarta, we are increasing the effort without a demonstrated need. Until the compatibility requirements of Jakarta are broken, the MP specification should be used as is in order to minimize the effort. Even in the case of consistency across Jakarta specifications where additional requirements should be added, that could be done as an extension to the MP specification by describing the additional integration requirements around the Jakarta Security support for example. Only when that cannot be done without changes in the MP specification should that cause a need to fork.
On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 4:04 AM Steve Millidge (Payara) <steve.millidge@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I’ve thought a lot over the last year about the relationship of MP and Jakarta and how apis should be consumed for each. I just thought I’d put this down as a conversation starter from my vendor perspective.
So some overall statements.
1. Jakarta EE should not use the MicroProfile namespace
2. Jakarta EE should adopt MP apis by moving them into the Jakarta namespace when they are mature
3. MP can choose to add the adopted api back into their platform just like Jakarta REST today or can continue to evolve the api in its own namespace.
Why do I think this?
Jakarta EE has a focus on backwards compatibility while MicroProfile has the goal of experiment and innovate without backwards compatibility. Moving a Jakarta adopted api into the Jakarta namespace means the Jakarta team can ensure backwards compatibility.
Prevents developer confusion. Developers can know that when they import an api in the Jakarta namespace they get stability and backwards compatibility and when they import an api in the microprofile namespace that it may change between major releases.
Vendors like Payara can more easily support both platforms. Take for example the case of where Jakarta EE wants to adopt MicroProfile Wombat 2.0 but MicroProfile WG wants to keep evolving MicroProfile Wombat 3.0 to a completely new api. By moving namespace and creating Jakarta EE Wombat 2.0 Payara can support both the latest MicroProfile Wombat 3.0 AND Jakarta EE Wombat 2.0 delivering the needs of the different developer communities.
Platform consistency – when moving an api into Jakarta EE it may need to be evolved to ensure it is consistent with the rest of the Jakarta EE platform e.g. supporting Jakarta Security etc. This is likely not possible in MP.
Easier demarcation between independent groups. The groups are independent of each other and this enables each group to be in control of its own platform without the need to maintain an LTS or Profile on one side just for the benefit of the other.
The alliance is then more about minimising duplication of effort when creating and evolving specification and deciding where the creation and maintenance of a specification should live.
Thanks
Steve
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