Home » Language IDEs » PHP Development Tools (PDT) » if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse
| if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81442] |
Thu, 09 October 2008 09:40  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: pobox.verysmall.org
After spending a lot of hope and nerves on PDT (being a brand fetishist
and believing that what comes from the eclipse.org web site, should be
the best) - I finally decided for PHPEclipse and the result has been great.
I can, finally, enjoy 3.4 instead of being stuck with a legacy version
and, for my personal needs, PHPEclipse hasn't exhibited any
disadvantages to PDT (which might not be true for everyone). If you
wonder if I do things, more complex than "Hello, world!" - yes, I do.
I'll check PDT again after some time, hoping it has managed to get out
of the unfortunate delay (my brand fetishism is not easy to cure :).
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
Iv
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81458 is a reply to message #81442] |
Thu, 09 October 2008 11:26  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: spam.networks.fi
Iv Ray wrote:
> After spending a lot of hope and nerves on PDT (being a brand fetishist
> and believing that what comes from the eclipse.org web site, should be
> the best) - I finally decided for PHPEclipse and the result has been great.
>
> I can, finally, enjoy 3.4 instead of being stuck with a legacy version
> and, for my personal needs, PHPEclipse hasn't exhibited any
> disadvantages to PDT (which might not be true for everyone). If you
> wonder if I do things, more complex than "Hello, world!" - yes, I do.
>
> I'll check PDT again after some time, hoping it has managed to get out
> of the unfortunate delay (my brand fetishism is not easy to cure :).
>
> So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!
>
> Iv
I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81560 is a reply to message #81458] |
Thu, 09 October 2008 19:58 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: work-del.del-subjectivist.org
Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing PDT
was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor documentation.
Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After reading I thought PDT
was the way to go and I did trial and error, but there is no precise
step-by-step list of things to do. After reading this thread I wiped out
the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over. According to the clear
instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a single URL to the software
update page, and I was off! No trial and error. No pick and choose
wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse perspective has Apache on/off
icons and what's presented is geared more to doing PHP. I was not able to
get rid of the 'selection job title' error that kept popping up with PDT,
and the IDE was useless because of that. Much more stuff needed to be
installed with PDT, too.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81614 is a reply to message #81560] |
Fri, 10 October 2008 10:04 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: spam.networks.fi
David McDivitt wrote:
> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
>> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
>> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
>
> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error, but
> there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After reading
> this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over.
> According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a
> single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No trial and
> error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse
> perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented is geared more
> to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the 'selection job title'
> error that kept popping up with PDT, and the IDE was useless because of
> that. Much more stuff needed to be installed with PDT, too.
But does PHPEclipse offer me anything that PDT 1.0.3 doesn't already? At
PHPEclipse site the comparison chart doesn't seem to provide me any new
functionality. PDT 1.0.3 is relatively stable and feature rich compnent
after all. Can I do more with less with PHPEclipse? :)
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81629 is a reply to message #81614] |
Fri, 10 October 2008 10:41 |
 Lester Caine
Messages: 68
Registered: July 2009 |
Member |
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Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
> David McDivitt wrote:
>> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>>> I went from PHPEclipse to PDT few years ago. PHPEclipse was not
>>> developed anymore(??) or something. Now it seems that it's updated, but
>>> feature comparisation gives me nothing that PDT doesn't already have.
>> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
>> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
>> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
>> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error, but
>> there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After reading
>> this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started over.
>> According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I added a
>> single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No trial and
>> error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also, the Eclipse
>> perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented is geared more
>> to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the 'selection job title'
>> error that kept popping up with PDT, and the IDE was useless because of
>> that. Much more stuff needed to be installed with PDT, too.
>
> But does PHPEclipse offer me anything that PDT 1.0.3 doesn't already? At
> PHPEclipse site the comparison chart doesn't seem to provide me any new
> functionality. PDT 1.0.3 is relatively stable and feature rich compnent
> after all. Can I do more with less with PHPEclipse? :)
Million dollar question ;)
Why wasn't PHPEclipse simply listed as the approved PHP environment when ZEND
decided that their own 'commercially linked' alternative should have that
privilege?
PHPEclipse offered everything long before PDT came on the scene. Now the
question is why do we have two options, one of which we CAN'T contribute to
ourselves ;)
But then this is not the list for that discussion :(
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-----------------------------
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/lsces/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #81645 is a reply to message #81575] |
Fri, 10 October 2008 11:36 |
Ed Merks
Messages: 33252
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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David,
Comments below.
David Muir wrote:
> You mean you couldn't find this:?
How did you read that from the PDT home page? The Installation link
gets me to
http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/install.php
The download page only lists integration builds for 2.0:
http://www.eclipse.org/pdt/downloads/
This page looks a lot like the one Nick Boldt helped create for
modeling. In any case, most users will want to be using release builds
or stable builds rather than integration builds...
> http://wiki.eclipse.org/PDT/Installation#Eclipse_3.4_.2F_Gan ymede_.2F_PDT_2.0
>
I don't actually know how to find this from the home page. I guess you
have to know that the wiki will have more or different information.
>
> Sure PDT doesn't have the handy update site yet. (or does it now?)
Nick has helped many groups get handy update sites in place...
> It doesn't take a science degree to download a few packages and install.
No, but it's awfully easy to make one wrong choice...
> The "selection job title" error is probably because you installed
> version 0.95 of DLTK instead of 1.0 (clearly stated on the download
> and install pages).
> PHPEclipse is a great tool too, so enjoy.
I suppose it would be nicer for the community to have one fantastic
tool. But there are no rules against competition. Maybe it even forces
improvements that might not happen otherwise...
>
>
> David McDivitt wrote:
>
>> As a new user with Eclipse, I find PHPEclipse much easier! Installing
>> PDT was complicated because of so many dependencies and poor
>> documentation. Too many things to download! Too much stuff! After
>> reading I thought PDT was the way to go and I did trial and error,
>> but there is no precise step-by-step list of things to do. After
>> reading this thread I wiped out the Eclipse 3.4.1 I had and started
>> over. According to the clear instructions at the PHPEclipse site, I
>> added a single URL to the software update page, and I was off! No
>> trial and error. No pick and choose wondering what means what. Also,
>> the Eclipse perspective has Apache on/off icons and what's presented
>> is geared more to doing PHP. I was not able to get rid of the
>> 'selection job title' error that kept popping up with PDT, and the
>> IDE was useless because of that. Much more stuff needed to be
>> installed with PDT, too.
>
>
--------------080006020706060005010707
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-15"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
David,<br>
<br>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
David Muir wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:0343d0fd909964c03546cd3f143a62fb$1@www.eclipse.org"
type="cite">You mean you couldn't find this:?
<br>
</blockquote>
How did you read that from the PDT home page?
Ed Merks
Professional Support: https://www.macromodeling.com/
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82737 is a reply to message #81629] |
Tue, 28 October 2008 13:41 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org
Lester Caine wrote:
> Jasmo Hiltula wrote:
>
> Million dollar question ;)
> Why wasn't PHPEclipse simply listed as the approved PHP environment when
> ZEND decided that their own 'commercially linked' alternative should
> have that privilege?
> PHPEclipse offered everything long before PDT came on the scene. Now the
> question is why do we have two options, one of which we CAN'T contribute
> to ourselves ;)
> But then this is not the list for that discussion :(
Well, my understanding at this time is that the two groups don't really
get along. I think there was a time when PHPEclipse wanted to help and
merge with PDT but something happened that never caused that to happen.
The big advantage that PHPEclipe has right now, is that it works out of
the box with 3.4.x of eclipse. PDT could have a version the 1.0.x
branch that worked with Eclipse 3.4.x if they would just do a
maintenance release of the 1.0.5 branch sitting in CVS.
And actually this is the correct list for any discussion regarding the
community concerns about PDT and the future direction of it, or it's
perceived lack of openess or community concern.
Dave
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82765 is a reply to message #82761] |
Thu, 30 October 2008 08:06 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: silver.zachara.gmail.com
David Muir napsal(a):
> Are the devs back from holidays yet?
> Also, had a look at the update site, and it only had the integration
> builds (interim). Any chance of getting nightlies? Or at least having
> them built properly so that you don't have to uninstall-reinstall PDT
> every time you want to update.
>
From own experience I know that it is necessary, you have to uninstall-reinstall PDT every
time you want to update.
And there isn't any update site for nightly builds.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82779 is a reply to message #82772] |
Thu, 30 October 2008 22:17 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org
Roy Ganor wrote:
> I personally think that the PHPEclipse team has its own interest,
> otherwise I can't understand why they don't join the Eclipse Foundation
> and PDT. I asked them more than once to join our team and contribute to
> the timeline and everything, I guess that if they had agreed back then
> Eclipse PDT would have Eclipse 3.4 support by now.
> We are working hard to release a stable milestone soon, and in a few
> days all will be able to benefit from it.
Roy thanks for responding, and it's nice to hear that PDT would be open
to having PHP Eclipse developer's work with PDT and vice versa. Now
it's just making it happen.
So, for those PHP Eclipse developers, how about it...I'm tossing the
ball in your corner. Both groups need to bury the hatchet and work in
the best interests of the community as a whole.
Dave
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82789 is a reply to message #82772] |
Fri, 31 October 2008 08:44 |
Jorrit Schippers
Messages: 26
Registered: July 2009 |
Junior Member |
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Roy Ganor wrote:
> David and All,
>
> I personally think that the PHPEclipse team has its own interest,
> otherwise I can't understand why they don't join the Eclipse Foundation
> and PDT. I asked them more than once to join our team and contribute to
> the timeline and everything, I guess that if they had agreed back then
> Eclipse PDT would have Eclipse 3.4 support by now.
> We are working hard to release a stable milestone soon, and in a few
> days all will be able to benefit from it.
> - Roy
I must support this last statement. I'm following the PDT 2.0
development using Mylyn and I see a steady flow of fixed tickets. For
me, the 2.0 nightlies are of beta quality (some glitches here and there,
but very workable), while nightlies usually are thought of as less then
alpha quality.
I think having both PDT and PHPEclipse does cause some "double effort"
to be wasted, but on the other hand it might also create better products
because of some competition and the fact that both teams can learn from
each others good and weak points.
If PHPEclipse and PDT decide to joins their efforts however, I would
also support it, if it does create a better product. But then the
PHPEclipse folks probably have to agree that Zend is using their code as
part of their commercial product and the Zend folks have to agree that
the PHPEclipse folks will try to bring as many features as possible to
the general public for free. That might not create the ideal situation
for a good project team, so it might be best if the two teams stay
separated.
Perhaps my views are entirely wrong, but that's how it looks to me right
now.
Jorrit
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82833 is a reply to message #82782] |
Fri, 31 October 2008 15:13 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org
> David - put the question the other way around. Why did the Zend team
> make a case for starting their own code base - from scratch - in the
> first place? PHPEclipse was well established and is STILL very popular.
Lester...the past is the past.... the question is what is good for the
community...not what happened in the past. If people can't get beyond
the issues that caused the splintering, then NOTHING will happen and we
will continue to have the status quo.
> HAD they backed the move to get it incorporated as the PHP platform in
> Eclipse we would not have a problem today? The 'reasons' given for
> wanting to kill off PHPEclipse were not valid and I for one have no
> intention improving a COMMERCIAL product when a perfectly stable
> unencumbered open source alternative is available!
Again...eclipse platform is about not re-inventing the wheel for common
functionality. Nothing is stopping you from continuing enhancing
PHPEclipse and continuing it as an open source platform. But really,
combining your efforts on the base will help everybody as a whole, you
get the benefits and features that Zend has contributed, and yes, they
get your benefits as well.
However, while competition does spur innovation, re-inventing the same
base functionality, probably isn't the best use of limited resources on
both projects.
Don't forget, Eclipse itself is used in MANY COMMERCIAL projects. And
truelly, there is nothing stopping somebody from taking PHPEclipse and
building a commercial product off of it as it's licensed under the
Common Public License.
> Zend were welcome to add their input to the PHPEclipse codebase but then
> they would not have had the control that they currently exercise over PDT!
Well, join them, and have equal input into a common code base. Whose
code base it is and where it is stored isn't the issue. The issue is
dropping old grudges and moving on.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82847 is a reply to message #82789] |
Fri, 31 October 2008 15:25 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org
Jorrit Schippers wrote:
>
> If PHPEclipse and PDT decide to joins their efforts however, I would
> also support it, if it does create a better product. But then the
> PHPEclipse folks probably have to agree that Zend is using their code as
> part of their commercial product and the Zend folks have to agree that
> the PHPEclipse folks will try to bring as many features as possible to
> the general public for free. That might not create the ideal situation
> for a good project team, so it might be best if the two teams stay
> separated.
Jorrit, this happens on many eclipse projects everyday. You have both
commercial developers, and individual contributors working on improving
the code. PDT is already available for free, so it already competes
with Zend at that point. Since it is available for free, somebody can
take the code base of PDT and build a competing commercial IDE on top of
it, or a competing open source IDE on top of it.
The whole problem with PDT project team right now is that it isn't as
diversified of a project as it really needs to be. Right now one
companies views and needs are being addressed over the needs of what
others might view as being a priority.
If you look at the number of individuals that committ code to eclipse,
it second only behind IBM.
Eclipse has a project dash board...you can see the project diversity:
http://dash.eclipse.org/dash/commits/web-app/project-diversi ty.cgi
93% of the code for PDT is being contributed by Zend.
compare this with the CDT project, which has over 57% of the code being
contributed by individual committers, with 20% coming from IBM and the
other portions being provided by Wind River.
Compete on value added features is the key, not the common feature set.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82889 is a reply to message #82875] |
Fri, 31 October 2008 19:16 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: silver.zachara.gmail.com
Andrew Thompson napsal(a):
> I guess one thing that concerns me is whether PDT will accept
> overlapping with some of the features that Zend Studio supports, such as
> the built-in profiler, Zend Framework integration.
>
> Being that this would be a conflict of Zend's interests, would these
> features be disregarded in the PDT?
>
> PHPEclipse is supposedly free from commercial interests, so would be
> more likely to listen to such feature requests.
>
I hope that this is perhaps a joke. PDT is opensource(or not?), that I think that it can
implement what it want.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #82904 is a reply to message #82875] |
Fri, 31 October 2008 20:43 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org
Andrew Thompson wrote:
> I guess one thing that concerns me is whether PDT will accept
> overlapping with some of the features that Zend Studio supports, such as
> the built-in profiler, Zend Framework integration.
>
> Being that this would be a conflict of Zend's interests, would these
> features be disregarded in the PDT?
>
> PHPEclipse is supposedly free from commercial interests, so would be
> more likely to listen to such feature requests.
Andy this is why project diversification is key. This way no one
company can overly influence the direction. Eclipse encourages and
really wants more diversification in it's projects. It's why I think
it's important to get more community involvement, have existing PDT
committers be more open to new features and enhancements, and for
adopters to request features and functionality.
PDT should not equal Zend....PDT should equal adopter/community interests.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83083 is a reply to message #83068] |
Tue, 04 November 2008 17:13 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dcarver.starstandard.org
> the one commodity that is in short supply, so without any incentive to
> spend that time - why should WE have to switch?
For the better ment of the community. May not seem like much, but it's
always easy to come up with reasons not to switch. Maybe once 2.0 is
out the door PHPEclipse could look at migrating, and eventually
contributing back. The community wins out, it helps diversify PDT so
it isn't all Zend committers.
BTW, congrats go to Nick Boldt, works for Red Hat, for becomming a PDT
committer recently. So they are open to bringing in new people, you
just have to put the time and effort into it. So again, it's in
PHPEclipse's hands if you want to actually work together or not.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83096 is a reply to message #83083] |
Tue, 04 November 2008 21:06 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: silver.zachara.gmail.com
As a normal user I think that would be best to merge this two projects.
This will be the best situation for users of PHP extension in Eclipse and all power will
be contentrate for development.
it's of no importance to the user, whether he uses PHPEclipse or PDT, important is what is
better(or best). I'd rather use one good plugin than two worse.
I think all users share this opinion.
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| Re: if you want to enjoy 3.4 go for PHPEclipse [message #83136 is a reply to message #83096] |
Thu, 06 November 2008 06:22 |
David Muir
Messages: 63
Registered: July 2009 |
Member |
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Silver Zachara wrote:
> As a normal user I think that would be best to merge this two projects.
Merging projects isn't always a good idea. If either side wants to
contribute to the other, then great, but competition is usually a good
thing to have, even in OSS environments with few resources. Also, if I'm
not mistaken, the two plugins have fairly different foundations, so
merging the two would take a ton of resources. Not to mention the arguing
between the two as to who's implementation of feature x should be kept,
and who's should be dumped. I think it would be better if the two sides
just drop any animosity, and continue with what they do best. Both plugins
are great, and offer a good range of features. If you don't like one, you
can always use the other. You wouldn't have that choice if they were
merged.
On the matter of contributions, I'd say it's not fair to expect either
side to contribute to the other. If PDT is a fork of PHPEclipse, then
yeah, PDT people should be contributing their stuff back to PHPEclipse,
but since it isn't, there's really no precedent for doing so. That doesn't
mean they can't, but the expectation isn't there since they're unrelated
projects.
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