Home » Newcomers » Newcomers » Why is Eclipse so difficult to use
| Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250519] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 17:43  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: peterx.learn.gmail.com
I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a couple
of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the UI part,
I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual Studio and know
what I want.
But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create a
project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT intuitive!
Here are some examples:
1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the
word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't allow
java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a zip file
for my helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
2) to be able to comple, it seems I need to go to "Run" which
automatically builds for me. But I like to do things step by step, so I
searched for "Compile" or Build, yes, easy to find them under "Project",
but "Build Project" button is grey-ed out. I really had no clue how to
build the damn thing until I saw "Build Automatically" is checked for me
by default. After that, it worked.
3) Not to list every detail, but it seems one needs to know what so many
details about the workbench even for basic things. For example, you need
to make the right selection under "Window > Show View" before you can use
or see some other stuff. This is like walking through the Workbench with
two hands on mouse instead of one. I thought a good GUI should allow
people to use basic things without attending a training course. Now I am
looking at a free Viedo training course by Mark (?).
I know Eclipse is very powerful, I had a trainer using it for my J2EE
course and it was indeed very good, but two years later, I find the
Workbench GUI for beginners just sucks.
P
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250541 is a reply to message #250519] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 19:02  |
 Thomas Schindl
Messages: 6651
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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P schrieb:
> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a couple
> of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the UI part,
> I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual Studio and know
> what I want.
>
> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
> experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create a
> project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT intuitive!
> Here are some examples:
>
> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the
> word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't
> allow java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a
> zip file for my helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
>
Ever thought to just copy&past?
Tom
--
B e s t S o l u t i o n . at
------------------------------------------------------------ --------
Tom Schindl JFace-Committer
------------------------------------------------------------ --------
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250545 is a reply to message #250519] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 19:26 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: wegener.cboenospam.com
"P" <peterx.learn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:310e2c8e3344e963947df99c6970d656$1@www.eclipse.org...
> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a couple
> of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the UI part,
> I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual Studio and know
> what I want.
>
> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
> experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create a
> project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT intuitive!
> Here are some examples:
>
> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the
> word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't allow
> java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a zip file
> for my helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
>
Eclipse supports import of individual files. From the initial Import
dialog, select File System. This will give you a dialog that allows you to
browse to your filesystem and select a folder to import from.
> 2) to be able to comple, it seems I need to go to "Run" which
> automatically builds for me. But I like to do things step by step, so I
> searched for "Compile" or Build, yes, easy to find them under "Project",
> but "Build Project" button is grey-ed out. I really had no clue how to
> build the damn thing until I saw "Build Automatically" is checked for me
> by default. After that, it worked.
>
Eclipse includes an incremental compiler that compiles automatically on any
resource save. With Build Automatically turned on, there is no need to
perform a separate Build Project step, so the button is greyed out. If you
don't want the project built automatically, you can turn the option off.
The Build Project then becomes enabled.
> 3) Not to list every detail, but it seems one needs to know what so many
> details about the workbench even for basic things. For example, you need
> to make the right selection under "Window > Show View" before you can use
> or see some other stuff. This is like walking through the Workbench with
> two hands on mouse instead of one. I thought a good GUI should allow
> people to use basic things without attending a training course. Now I am
> looking at a free Viedo training course by Mark (?).
>
> I know Eclipse is very powerful, I had a trainer using it for my J2EE
> course and it was indeed very good, but two years later, I find the
> Workbench GUI for beginners just sucks.
>
This tends to be a subjective issue. Some people take to the GUI with ease.
Other people have a hard time. Sorry to hear that you seem to be one of the
people having a hard time. Hopefully, the video will help you out. If you
have additional questions, you should check out the Java Development User
Guide in the Help system. It has tutorials for how to use Eclipse for Java
development.
> P
>
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250549 is a reply to message #250519] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 19:29 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
P,
A provocative title. Comments below.
P wrote:
> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a
> couple of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the
> UI part, I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual
> Studio and know what I want.
I little knowledge is a dangerous thing they say. :-P
>
> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
> experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create a
> project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT
> intuitive! Here are some examples:
I've always found that intuition is in the eye of the beholder.
>
> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the
> word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't
> allow java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a
> zip file for my helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
File->Import...->General->File System would do the trick...
>
> 2) to be able to comple, it seems I need to go to "Run" which
> automatically builds for me. But I like to do things step by step, so
> I searched for "Compile" or Build, yes, easy to find them under
> "Project", but "Build Project" button is grey-ed out. I really had no
> clue how to build the damn thing until I saw "Build Automatically" is
> checked for me by default. After that, it worked.
You've learned you don't need to build it manually. Isn't that much easier?
>
> 3) Not to list every detail, but it seems one needs to know what so
> many details about the workbench even for basic things. For example,
> you need to make the right selection under "Window > Show View" before
> you can use or see some other stuff.
What's the alternative? Show everything at once?
> This is like walking through the Workbench with two hands on mouse
> instead of one. I thought a good GUI should allow people to use basic
> things without attending a training course. Now I am looking at a free
> Viedo training course by Mark (?).
Your reaction is kind of a classical one that I see in all walks of
life. Everything new is complex and unintuitive and once you lean it,
it seems simple and obvious.
>
> I know Eclipse is very powerful, I had a trainer using it for my J2EE
> course and it was indeed very good, but two years later, I find the
> Workbench GUI for beginners just sucks.
Do you think this observation will help improve things? Perhaps it just
make you feel better to vent your frustrations...
>
> P
>
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250569 is a reply to message #250561] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 20:21 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
P,
Anything that works is proper, isn't it? Drag and drop works too.
P wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. Yes, I sure can cut & paste and I can find way
> to do it, I just want to use the "proper" way.
> P
>
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250573 is a reply to message #250549] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 20:29 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: peterx.learn.gmail.com
I like to thank everyone for their replies. Your replies all have valid
points.
I guess my reaction is:
1) my frustration is NOT that I can't find a way to do things, it's just
not easy as it should be. Sure it's a subjective matter, but sure there're
better GUIs than others. I travelled often partially as a trainer for my
company's software. To be honest, our GUI has similar problems. I vividly
remember one student after playing our GUI in the classroom, commented -
"who said everyone should write his own GUI and not leave it to the
expert".
Yes, the benefit of GUI is once you know it, it's hard to forget, but what
distinguishes good and not so good, it's the degree of ease for
"beginners". I have a lot of experience with other IDEs, that's why I
expect Eclipse to work as well as others ...
2) I guess the surprise I had is mainly due to my expectation that Eclipse
is a very very good tool, it should be good in every way, that's why we
come to use it. I still think Eclipse is very powerful, but my expectation
that its GUI is as good as Microsoft ones, maybe is just too quick a
thought. After all, this is just a small part of Eclipse; after all, it's
free.
Sorry I just post some honest thought, not to offend anyone.
Thx
P
Ed Merks wrote:
> P,
> A provocative title. Comments below.
> P wrote:
>> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a
>> couple of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the
>> UI part, I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual
>> Studio and know what I want.
> I little knowledge is a dangerous thing they say. :-P
>>
>> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
>> experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create a
>> project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT
>> intuitive! Here are some examples:
> I've always found that intuition is in the eye of the beholder.
>>
>> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the
>> word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't
>> allow java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a
>> zip file for my helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
> File->Import...->General->File System would do the trick...
>>
>> 2) to be able to comple, it seems I need to go to "Run" which
>> automatically builds for me. But I like to do things step by step, so
>> I searched for "Compile" or Build, yes, easy to find them under
>> "Project", but "Build Project" button is grey-ed out. I really had no
>> clue how to build the damn thing until I saw "Build Automatically" is
>> checked for me by default. After that, it worked.
> You've learned you don't need to build it manually. Isn't that much easier?
>>
>> 3) Not to list every detail, but it seems one needs to know what so
>> many details about the workbench even for basic things. For example,
>> you need to make the right selection under "Window > Show View" before
>> you can use or see some other stuff.
> What's the alternative? Show everything at once?
>> This is like walking through the Workbench with two hands on mouse
>> instead of one. I thought a good GUI should allow people to use basic
>> things without attending a training course. Now I am looking at a free
>> Viedo training course by Mark (?).
> Your reaction is kind of a classical one that I see in all walks of
> life. Everything new is complex and unintuitive and once you lean it,
> it seems simple and obvious.
>>
>> I know Eclipse is very powerful, I had a trainer using it for my J2EE
>> course and it was indeed very good, but two years later, I find the
>> Workbench GUI for beginners just sucks.
> Do you think this observation will help improve things? Perhaps it just
> make you feel better to vent your frustrations...
>>
>> P
>>
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250577 is a reply to message #250573] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 21:09 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
P,
Comments below.
P wrote:
> I like to thank everyone for their replies. Your replies all have
> valid points.
>
> I guess my reaction is:
> 1) my frustration is NOT that I can't find a way to do things, it's
> just not easy as it should be. Sure it's a subjective matter, but sure
> there're better GUIs than others. I travelled often partially as a
> trainer for my company's software. To be honest, our GUI has similar
> problems. I vividly remember one student after playing our GUI in the
> classroom, commented - "who said everyone should write his own GUI and
> not leave it to the expert".
> Yes, the benefit of GUI is once you know it, it's hard to forget, but
> what distinguishes good and not so good, it's the degree of ease for
> "beginners". I have a lot of experience with other IDEs, that's why I
> expect Eclipse to work as well as others ...
I think Eclipse's resource model is fairly complex and there is a
significant learning curve. But I really don't see the GUI itself as
being overly complex and I can't imagine how to make it simpler without
also making it less powerful. In any case, it is an IDE and programming
in a language requires a user with quite sophisticated skills, so a lot
of time spent targeting the beginner might well be targeting a small or
short term audience.
>
>
> 2) I guess the surprise I had is mainly due to my expectation that
> Eclipse is a very very good tool, it should be good in every way,
> that's why we come to use it. I still think Eclipse is very powerful,
> but my expectation that its GUI is as good as Microsoft ones, maybe is
> just too quick a thought. After all, this is just a small part of
> Eclipse; after all, it's free.
So far your reasons for why it's not as good haven't been all that
convincing. Copy and paste, drag and drop, and import all are ways to
get a file into the workspace. I could imagine folks complaining that
there are already too many actions on a project popup and I personally
would so seldom need to use "Add File" that I'd rather not have such an
action. The thinking about expecting to do a build explicitly might go
in the reverse way. E.g.., someone might complain, hey, I just realized
I needed to do this extra build step which I've never needed to do
before and seems so unnecessary. How stupid and unintuitive is that?
Why make things more complicated for me. Now I always end up forgetting
to do a build first and none of my changes are having any effect. I
typically have very little need to show views that aren't already
available on tabs, so I don't get that argument either.
I know this might all sound a little defensive, but it seems to me that
everything is always criticized by someone because there's just no
pleasing everyone. Speaking of which, have you tried out Vista yet?
>
>
> Sorry I just post some honest thought, not to offend anyone.
>
> Thx
>
> P
>
>
>
>
> Ed Merks wrote:
>
>> P,
>
>> A provocative title. Comments below.
>
>> P wrote:
>>> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a
>>> couple of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of
>>> the UI part, I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual
>>> Studio and know what I want.
>> I little knowledge is a dangerous thing they say. :-P
>>>
>>> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
>>> experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create
>>> a project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT
>>> intuitive! Here are some examples:
>> I've always found that intuition is in the eye of the beholder.
>>>
>>> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find
>>> the word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import
>>> doesn't allow java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first
>>> create a zip file for my helloworld.java before adding it to my
>>> project.
>> File->Import...->General->File System would do the trick...
>>>
>>> 2) to be able to comple, it seems I need to go to "Run" which
>>> automatically builds for me. But I like to do things step by step,
>>> so I searched for "Compile" or Build, yes, easy to find them under
>>> "Project", but "Build Project" button is grey-ed out. I really had
>>> no clue how to build the damn thing until I saw "Build
>>> Automatically" is checked for me by default. After that, it worked.
>> You've learned you don't need to build it manually. Isn't that much
>> easier?
>>>
>>> 3) Not to list every detail, but it seems one needs to know what so
>>> many details about the workbench even for basic things. For example,
>>> you need to make the right selection under "Window > Show View"
>>> before you can use or see some other stuff.
>> What's the alternative? Show everything at once?
>>> This is like walking through the Workbench with two hands on mouse
>>> instead of one. I thought a good GUI should allow people to use
>>> basic things without attending a training course. Now I am looking
>>> at a free Viedo training course by Mark (?).
>> Your reaction is kind of a classical one that I see in all walks of
>> life. Everything new is complex and unintuitive and once you lean
>> it, it seems simple and obvious.
>>>
>>> I know Eclipse is very powerful, I had a trainer using it for my
>>> J2EE course and it was indeed very good, but two years later, I find
>>> the Workbench GUI for beginners just sucks.
>> Do you think this observation will help improve things? Perhaps it
>> just make you feel better to vent your frustrations...
>>>
>>> P
>>>
>
>
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250583 is a reply to message #250519] |
Fri, 29 February 2008 21:23 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: eclipse-news.rizzoweb.com
In addition to the excellent responses already provided, I wanted to
point out that specific ideas for improving the UI are always welcome,
in the form of Bugzilla reports. Remember, this is open source software,
a term that applies to more than just the source code...
http://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs
Eric
P wrote:
> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a couple
> of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the UI part,
> I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual Studio and know
> what I want.
>
> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with. I thought with my
> experience, I should be able to get simple things going like create a
> project, add files to it, compile ..., in 1 hour. It's so NOT intuitive!
> Here are some examples:
>
> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the
> word "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't
> allow java file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a
> zip file for my helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
>
> 2) to be able to comple, it seems I need to go to "Run" which
> automatically builds for me. But I like to do things step by step, so I
> searched for "Compile" or Build, yes, easy to find them under "Project",
> but "Build Project" button is grey-ed out. I really had no clue how to
> build the damn thing until I saw "Build Automatically" is checked for me
> by default. After that, it worked.
>
> 3) Not to list every detail, but it seems one needs to know what so many
> details about the workbench even for basic things. For example, you need
> to make the right selection under "Window > Show View" before you can
> use or see some other stuff. This is like walking through the Workbench
> with two hands on mouse instead of one. I thought a good GUI should
> allow people to use basic things without attending a training course.
> Now I am looking at a free Viedo training course by Mark (?).
>
> I know Eclipse is very powerful, I had a trainer using it for my J2EE
> course and it was indeed very good, but two years later, I find the
> Workbench GUI for beginners just sucks.
>
> P
>
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250687 is a reply to message #250519] |
Sun, 02 March 2008 18:50 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: nowhere.a.com
P wrote :
> 1) to add an existing java file to my project, no where I can find the word
> "Add files to project". Sure, I find Import, but Import doesn't allow java
> file, it only allows Archive File. I had to first create a zip file for my
> helloworld.java before adding it to my project.
You can also use Windows explorer to copy the file(s) into a
sub-directory (um, package) within the project file directory then do a
refresh in Eclipse.
Eclipse will find the new files and put them into the project. Though
you may need to fix up the "package" statement.
--
Wojtek :-)
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250708 is a reply to message #250519] |
Mon, 03 March 2008 04:46 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: wharley.bea.com
"P" <peterx.learn@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:310e2c8e3344e963947df99c6970d656$1@www.eclipse.org...
> I'm a veteran in the software industry, touched Eclipse briefly a couple
> of years ago and now want to use it again. Thus in terms of the UI part,
> I'm new, but I'm very familiar with IDEs such as Visual Studio and know
> what I want.
>
> But man!, it's just damn difficult to start with.
Eclipse is difficult to use, it's true. Many of us who've been using it for
a while tend to forget what the initial learning curve was like.
Personally, I have to say that of the various IDEs I've used Eclipse was the
hardest to get started with, though not nearly so hard as CAE products in
other domains, such as drafting and electronic design software.
Personally, I think this is a direct outcome of Eclipse's organizational
structure and ideology, and I don't see a solution. Consider a few factors:
1. You'd like the GUI to be more intuitive. To whom can you appeal? I
know, let's ask the GUI design lead. Oh, wait, there isn't one. In fact
there isn't even a GUI design team. The Eclipse GUI is a product of many
individual developers, each with their interpretations of what's best. We
don't even share the same customer demography: Eclipse is contributed to by
different companies who base radically different products on it.
2. Your first expectation was that there should be a command on the File
menu to Add a java file. But as you saw from the responses, there's already
a different way to add a java file from the File menu, and at least three
other ways to add external files (e.g., drag and drop). So what's the right
answer? Do we add another? Do we rename the existing one, and break
everyone who already knows how to run Eclipse? Eclipse's complexity stems
partly from the already-large number of ways to do things; but everyone's
expectations are different, as Ed suggested.
3. One of Eclipse's primary goals is backward compatibility: we try not to
break old APIs, we try not to break old usage patterns. This results in
accrual of layers and in lots of outmoded or contextually useless commands
and views.
4. Eclipse is extremely modular and extensible. It's not a Java IDE - it's
a C++ IDE, a J2EE IDE, an accounting system, a cell phone OS, whatever.
This means it doesn't tend to be streamlined for any particular task.
But the flip side is: Eclipse ships, it meets the needs of a large number of
users at least moderately well, it's open-source, and it's free. I
challenge you to come up with a development process that will result in a
better IDE product, given those constraints. If you can do it, I'll happily
join the effort :-)
-Walter Harley
JDT APT team
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250986 is a reply to message #250519] |
Thu, 06 March 2008 18:11 |
Carl Manaster
Messages: 23
Registered: July 2009 |
Junior Member |
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Hi, Peter,
I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very broad, and
its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one thing, and does
it very well and very intuitively" user experience that we all might like.
On the flip side, its extensibility means it can do many, many things and
I think most of its users have found the value that power to offset the
cost of its complexity.
For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of the
items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one another, and
even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time finding them each
time. I think that, and other things, could be better, but it's hard for
me to suggest how. So I guess the first thing I'm trying to say is: yes,
it can be harder to use, and _particularly_ harder to learn, than it might
be, but it is, for me and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to
learn.
The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed on
almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who has
experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get focused
learning in this way - every time you bump up against a problem, it's
something you have a serious interest in learning, and your pair, having
already run across it, probably has the answer for you. Often the
educational experience is osmotic; you don't even realize how much you are
learning - but the process is smooth and ultimately you learn the things
that are important to you, in the ways you want to use the tool (or
language, or library, etc.). It sounds like you are having a very
difficult time learning Eclipse solo, and I would really encourage you to
find someone local who already knows it and spend a couple of days working
together on the problems you're trying to solve. I think you'll be
amazed, and feel much better about Eclipse, to boot.
Peace,
--Carl
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| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #250990 is a reply to message #250986] |
Thu, 06 March 2008 19:23 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Carl,
Very nicely said!
Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
knowledge base you have. I watched Peter's demo about working sets the
other day and figured, hey that would help me deal with the 180 modeling
plugins I have in my workspace.
http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/
All of my EMF projects are warning free and I like to keep them that
way, but when I mix other projects into the workspace, that becomes more
difficult...
Carl Manaster wrote:
> Hi, Peter,
>
> I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very broad,
> and its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one thing,
> and does it very well and very intuitively" user experience that we
> all might like. On the flip side, its extensibility means it can do
> many, many things and I think most of its users have found the value
> that power to offset the cost of its complexity.
>
> For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of
> the items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one
> another, and even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time
> finding them each time. I think that, and other things, could be
> better, but it's hard for me to suggest how. So I guess the first
> thing I'm trying to say is: yes, it can be harder to use, and
> _particularly_ harder to learn, than it might be, but it is, for me
> and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to learn.
>
> The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed on
> almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who has
> experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get focused
> learning in this way - every time you bump up against a problem, it's
> something you have a serious interest in learning, and your pair,
> having already run across it, probably has the answer for you. Often
> the educational experience is osmotic; you don't even realize how much
> you are learning - but the process is smooth and ultimately you learn
> the things that are important to you, in the ways you want to use the
> tool (or language, or library, etc.). It sounds like you are having a
> very difficult time learning Eclipse solo, and I would really
> encourage you to find someone local who already knows it and spend a
> couple of days working together on the problems you're trying to
> solve. I think you'll be amazed, and feel much better about Eclipse,
> to boot.
>
> Peace,
> --Carl
>
--------------060506070303010301070605
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Carl,<br>
<br>
Very nicely said!<br>
<br>
Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
knowledge base you have.
|
|
|
| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #251012 is a reply to message #250990] |
Thu, 06 March 2008 21:10 |
Wayne Beaton
Messages: 554
Registered: December 2017 |
Senior Member |
|
|
Try Mylyn. Complements Working Sets very nicely...
Wayne
On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:23 -0500, Ed Merks wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Very nicely said!
>
> Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
> every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
> knowledge base you have. I watched Peter's demo about working sets
> the other day and figured, hey that would help me deal with the 180
> modeling plugins I have in my workspace.
> http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/
> All of my EMF projects are warning free and I like to keep them that
> way, but when I mix other projects into the workspace, that becomes
> more difficult...
>
>
> Carl Manaster wrote:
> > Hi, Peter,
> >
> > I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very
> > broad, and its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one
> > thing, and does it very well and very intuitively" user experience
> > that we all might like. On the flip side, its extensibility means it
> > can do many, many things and I think most of its users have found
> > the value that power to offset the cost of its complexity.
> >
> > For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of
> > the items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one
> > another, and even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time
> > finding them each time. I think that, and other things, could be
> > better, but it's hard for me to suggest how. So I guess the first
> > thing I'm trying to say is: yes, it can be harder to use, and
> > _particularly_ harder to learn, than it might be, but it is, for me
> > and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to learn.
> >
> > The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed
> > on almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who
> > has experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get
> > focused learning in this way - every time you bump up against a
> > problem, it's something you have a serious interest in learning, and
> > your pair, having already run across it, probably has the answer for
> > you. Often the educational experience is osmotic; you don't even
> > realize how much you are learning - but the process is smooth and
> > ultimately you learn the things that are important to you, in the
> > ways you want to use the tool (or language, or library, etc.). It
> > sounds like you are having a very difficult time learning Eclipse
> > solo, and I would really encourage you to find someone local who
> > already knows it and spend a couple of days working together on the
> > problems you're trying to solve. I think you'll be amazed, and feel
> > much better about Eclipse, to boot.
> >
> > Peace,
> > --Carl
> >
>
|
|
|
| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #251021 is a reply to message #251012] |
Thu, 06 March 2008 21:21 |
| Eclipse User |
|
|
|
Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------050705040308010602070906
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Wayne,
Install more plugins! That's a big step for me!! :-P
Sadly I'm a bit of a tool Luddite, though goodness knows why I would
admit that in public. I suppose I'm feeling a particularly strong need
to be open today and to confess my horrible person flaws.
I know many folks absolutely love Mylyn. I've heard nothing but good
things.
Wayne Beaton wrote:
> Try Mylyn. Complements Working Sets very nicely...
>
> Wayne
>
> On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:23 -0500, Ed Merks wrote:
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> Very nicely said!
>>
>> Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
>> every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
>> knowledge base you have. I watched Peter's demo about working sets
>> the other day and figured, hey that would help me deal with the 180
>> modeling plugins I have in my workspace.
>> http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/
>> All of my EMF projects are warning free and I like to keep them that
>> way, but when I mix other projects into the workspace, that becomes
>> more difficult...
>>
>>
>> Carl Manaster wrote:
>>
>>> Hi, Peter,
>>>
>>> I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very
>>> broad, and its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one
>>> thing, and does it very well and very intuitively" user experience
>>> that we all might like. On the flip side, its extensibility means it
>>> can do many, many things and I think most of its users have found
>>> the value that power to offset the cost of its complexity.
>>>
>>> For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of
>>> the items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one
>>> another, and even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time
>>> finding them each time. I think that, and other things, could be
>>> better, but it's hard for me to suggest how. So I guess the first
>>> thing I'm trying to say is: yes, it can be harder to use, and
>>> _particularly_ harder to learn, than it might be, but it is, for me
>>> and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to learn.
>>>
>>> The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed
>>> on almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who
>>> has experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get
>>> focused learning in this way - every time you bump up against a
>>> problem, it's something you have a serious interest in learning, and
>>> your pair, having already run across it, probably has the answer for
>>> you. Often the educational experience is osmotic; you don't even
>>> realize how much you are learning - but the process is smooth and
>>> ultimately you learn the things that are important to you, in the
>>> ways you want to use the tool (or language, or library, etc.). It
>>> sounds like you are having a very difficult time learning Eclipse
>>> solo, and I would really encourage you to find someone local who
>>> already knows it and spend a couple of days working together on the
>>> problems you're trying to solve. I think you'll be amazed, and feel
>>> much better about Eclipse, to boot.
>>>
>>> Peace,
>>> --Carl
>>>
>>>
>
>
--------------050705040308010602070906
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Wayne,<br>
<br>
Install more plugins! That's a big step for me!! :-P<br>
<br>
Sadly I'm a bit of a tool Luddite, though goodness knows why I would
admit that in public. I suppose I'm feeling a particularly strong need
to be open today and to confess my horrible person flaws. <br>
<br>
I know many folks absolutely love Mylyn. I've heard nothing but good
things.<br>
<br>
<br>
Wayne Beaton wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:1204837835.5911.30.camel@BADWOLF" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Try Mylyn. Complements Working Sets very nicely...
Wayne
On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:23 -0500, Ed Merks wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Carl,
Very nicely said!
Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
knowledge base you have. I watched Peter's demo about working sets
the other day and figured, hey that would help me deal with the 180
modeling plugins I have in my workspace.
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/">http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/</a>
All of my EMF projects are warning free and I like to keep them that
way, but when I mix other projects into the workspace, that becomes
more difficult...
Carl Manaster wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi, Peter,
I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very
broad, and its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one
thing, and does it very well and very intuitively" user experience
that we all might like. On the flip side, its extensibility means it
can do many, many things and I think most of its users have found
the value that power to offset the cost of its complexity.
For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of
the items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one
another, and even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time
finding them each time. I think that, and other things, could be
better, but it's hard for me to suggest how. So I guess the first
thing I'm trying to say is: yes, it can be harder to use, and
_particularly_ harder to learn, than it might be, but it is, for me
and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to learn.
The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed
on almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who
has experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get
focused learning in this way - every time you bump up against a
problem, it's something you have a serious interest in learning, and
your pair, having already run across it, probably has the answer for
you. Often the educational experience is osmotic; you don't even
realize how much you are learning - but the process is smooth and
ultimately you learn the things that are important to you, in the
ways you want to use the tool (or language, or library, etc.). It
sounds like you are having a very difficult time learning Eclipse
solo, and I would really encourage you to find someone local who
already knows it and spend a couple of days working together on the
problems you're trying to solve. I think you'll be amazed, and feel
much better about Eclipse, to boot.
Peace,
--Carl
</pre>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>
--------------050705040308010602070906--
|
|
|
| Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #251032 is a reply to message #251021] |
Thu, 06 March 2008 21:36 |
Wayne Beaton
Messages: 554
Registered: December 2017 |
Senior Member |
|
|
What's it going to take, Ed? I sense an intervention at EclipseCon in
the making...
Wayne
On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 16:21 -0500, Ed Merks wrote:
> Wayne,
>
> Install more plugins! That's a big step for me!! :-P
>
> Sadly I'm a bit of a tool Luddite, though goodness knows why I would
> admit that in public. I suppose I'm feeling a particularly strong
> need to be open today and to confess my horrible person flaws.
>
> I know many folks absolutely love Mylyn. I've heard nothing but good
> things.
>
>
> Wayne Beaton wrote:
> > Try Mylyn. Complements Working Sets very nicely...
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> > On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:23 -0500, Ed Merks wrote:
> >
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > Very nicely said!
> > >
> > > Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
> > > every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
> > > knowledge base you have. I watched Peter's demo about working sets
> > > the other day and figured, hey that would help me deal with the 180
> > > modeling plugins I have in my workspace.
> > > http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/
> > > All of my EMF projects are warning free and I like to keep them that
> > > way, but when I mix other projects into the workspace, that becomes
> > > more difficult...
> > >
> > >
> > > Carl Manaster wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi, Peter,
> > > >
> > > > I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very
> > > > broad, and its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one
> > > > thing, and does it very well and very intuitively" user experience
> > > > that we all might like. On the flip side, its extensibility means it
> > > > can do many, many things and I think most of its users have found
> > > > the value that power to offset the cost of its complexity.
> > > >
> > > > For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of
> > > > the items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one
> > > > another, and even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time
> > > > finding them each time. I think that, and other things, could be
> > > > better, but it's hard for me to suggest how. So I guess the first
> > > > thing I'm trying to say is: yes, it can be harder to use, and
> > > > _particularly_ harder to learn, than it might be, but it is, for me
> > > > and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to learn.
> > > >
> > > > The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed
> > > > on almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who
> > > > has experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get
> > > > focused learning in this way - every time you bump up against a
> > > > problem, it's something you have a serious interest in learning, and
> > > > your pair, having already run across it, probably has the answer for
> > > > you. Often the educational experience is osmotic; you don't even
> > > > realize how much you are learning - but the process is smooth and
> > > > ultimately you learn the things that are important to you, in the
> > > > ways you want to use the tool (or language, or library, etc.). It
> > > > sounds like you are having a very difficult time learning Eclipse
> > > > solo, and I would really encourage you to find someone local who
> > > > already knows it and spend a couple of days working together on the
> > > > problems you're trying to solve. I think you'll be amazed, and feel
> > > > much better about Eclipse, to boot.
> > > >
> > > > Peace,
> > > > --Carl
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
>
|
|
|
| Mylyn rocks, was Re: Why is Eclipse so difficult to use [message #251076 is a reply to message #251021] |
Fri, 07 March 2008 19:26 |
Steve Blass
Messages: 276
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
|
|
Wayne's right though, Mylyn rocks. It frightened and confused this
caveman programmer the first two times I took a run at it but it is
definitely worth climbing the learning curve to get the advantages.
-
Steve
Ed Merks wrote:
> Wayne,
>
> Install more plugins! That's a big step for me!! :-P
>
> Sadly I'm a bit of a tool Luddite, though goodness knows why I would
> admit that in public. I suppose I'm feeling a particularly strong need
> to be open today and to confess my horrible person flaws.
>
> I know many folks absolutely love Mylyn. I've heard nothing but good
> things.
>
>
> Wayne Beaton wrote:
>> Try Mylyn. Complements Working Sets very nicely...
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>> On Thu, 2008-03-06 at 14:23 -0500, Ed Merks wrote:
>>
>>> Carl,
>>>
>>> Very nicely said!
>>>
>>> Another thing I find can be useful is to try to learn something new
>>> every so often, of course only once you're comfortable with the
>>> knowledge base you have. I watched Peter's demo about working sets
>>> the other day and figured, hey that would help me deal with the 180
>>> modeling plugins I have in my workspace.
>>> http://www.peterfriese.de/eclipse-working-sets-part-i/
>>> All of my EMF projects are warning free and I like to keep them that
>>> way, but when I mix other projects into the workspace, that becomes
>>> more difficult...
>>>
>>>
>>> Carl Manaster wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, Peter,
>>>>
>>>> I don't entirely disagree with you. Eclipse is very big, very
>>>> broad, and its extensibility precludes the kind of "does exactly one
>>>> thing, and does it very well and very intuitively" user experience
>>>> that we all might like. On the flip side, its extensibility means it
>>>> can do many, many things and I think most of its users have found
>>>> the value that power to offset the cost of its complexity.
>>>>
>>>> For my part, there are menus where I very frequently use about 3 of
>>>> the items on a 30-item menu, and "my" items are nowhere near one
>>>> another, and even though I use them frequently, I have a hard time
>>>> finding them each time. I think that, and other things, could be
>>>> better, but it's hard for me to suggest how. So I guess the first
>>>> thing I'm trying to say is: yes, it can be harder to use, and
>>>> _particularly_ harder to learn, than it might be, but it is, for me
>>>> and a lot of us, nevertheless worth the trouble to learn.
>>>>
>>>> The second thing I want to say is: the best way to come up to speed
>>>> on almost anything, in my experience, is to pair with someone who
>>>> has experience with whatever you are trying to learn. You get
>>>> focused learning in this way - every time you bump up against a
>>>> problem, it's something you have a serious interest in learning, and
>>>> your pair, having already run across it, probably has the answer for
>>>> you. Often the educational experience is osmotic; you don't even
>>>> realize how much you are learning - but the process is smooth and
>>>> ultimately you learn the things that are important to you, in the
>>>> ways you want to use the tool (or language, or library, etc.). It
>>>> sounds like you are having a very difficult time learning Eclipse
>>>> solo, and I would really encourage you to find someone local who
>>>> already knows it and spend a couple of days working together on the
>>>> problems you're trying to solve. I think you'll be amazed, and feel
>>>> much better about Eclipse, to boot.
>>>>
>>>> Peace,
>>>> --Carl
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>
|
|
|
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