Home » Language IDEs » ServerTools (WTP) » Web Tools vs. J2EE Tools
| Web Tools vs. J2EE Tools [message #8164] |
Fri, 05 September 2003 13:24  |
Eclipse User |
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Hi all,
just wanted to voice my concern that the charter of the "hopefully soon to
become real" Web Tools Platform project has such a strong wording towards
J2EE. The web development world is so much richer than just J2EE, and yet
J2EE is more than just web technology. If anything, J2EE-specific tools
could live under the umbrella of a web tools project... although I'd
personally see a web tools project as a foundation that J2EE tools could
build upon -- next to the JDT.
There. 'Tis Said. :-P
-chris
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| Re: Web Tools vs. J2EE Tools [message #8327 is a reply to message #8294] |
Wed, 10 September 2003 05:58  |
| Eclipse User |
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Robert Varga wrote:
> Yes, but JSP editing in my opinion belong to J2EE tools.
>
> Also J2EE tools could depend on Web tools.
I agree. As a simple rule, a core web tools feature should not depend on JDT
in any way. I would want to deploy eclipse installations for editing HTML,
CSS, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, etc without having to install the rather heavy
weight JDT. Basically you'd just install the platform runtime binary and the
core web tools feature, and you'd have a nice IDE for basic web development.
If you then need to develop with specific server-side
technologies/frameworks such as J2EE, you could add the JDT and J2EE tools
to the installation (others might want to add a PHP editor, for example). A
JSP editor would depend on the core web tools feature to support
HTML/CSS/JavaScript template text, and on the JDT for embedded scriptlets
etc. (there needs to be an infrastructure for nested/mixed content types for
this, which should ideally be provided by platform-text).
OTOH, J2EE development mmight also have nothing to do with web development
(if you're doing rich clients or JMS or whatever), so the dependancy graph
for a JSP editor could look like this:
Platform
/ \
/ \
JDT \
/ \
/ \
J2EE-Tools Web-Tools
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
JSP-Editor
(the JSP-editor would depend on J2EE-tools because of the discussed
deployment features, but that dependancy might as well be optional)
All that said, I do think that the web tools project could be split into
multiple plugins/features internally, serving as an umbrella project. I just
don't like the idea of one monolithic block that includes everything from
HTML editing to application server management.
-chris
> "Martín López" <lopezmm@mixmail.com> wrote in message
> news:bjkdmi$nue$1@eclipse.org...
>
>>Totally agree with that ... the project should be separated in other two:
>>Eclipse Web Tools (html, xml, jsp, publishing, etc.) & Eclipse J2EE Tools
>>(ejb, app servers, jar, war and ear deployment, etc.)
>>
>>"Christopher Lenz" <cmlenz@gmx.de> escribió en el mensaje
>>news:bjagm7$tnv$1@eclipse.org...
>>
>>>Hi all,
>>>
>>>just wanted to voice my concern that the charter of the "hopefully soon
>
> to
>
>>>become real" Web Tools Platform project has such a strong wording
>
> towards
>
>>>J2EE. The web development world is so much richer than just J2EE, and
>
> yet
>
>>>J2EE is more than just web technology. If anything, J2EE-specific tools
>>>could live under the umbrella of a web tools project... although I'd
>>>personally see a web tools project as a foundation that J2EE tools could
>>>build upon -- next to the JDT.
>>>
>>>There. 'Tis Said. :-P
>>>-chris
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
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| Re: Web Tools vs. J2EE Tools [message #8434 is a reply to message #8327] |
Wed, 17 September 2003 08:47 |
| Eclipse User |
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Based on my experiences to date, I agree that the web tools has to be just
that - web tools NOT constrained to the J2EE model only IF web tools are to
gain wide acceptance in the marketplace. Even the thought of starting "J2EE
to begin with" is an incredibly limiting scenario that must be avoided...
Jim Mason
"Christopher Lenz" <cmlenz@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:bjmsd9$5uh$1@eclipse.org...
> Robert Varga wrote:
> > Yes, but JSP editing in my opinion belong to J2EE tools.
> >
> > Also J2EE tools could depend on Web tools.
>
> I agree. As a simple rule, a core web tools feature should not depend on
JDT
> in any way. I would want to deploy eclipse installations for editing HTML,
> CSS, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, etc without having to install the rather heavy
> weight JDT. Basically you'd just install the platform runtime binary and
the
> core web tools feature, and you'd have a nice IDE for basic web
development.
>
> If you then need to develop with specific server-side
> technologies/frameworks such as J2EE, you could add the JDT and J2EE tools
> to the installation (others might want to add a PHP editor, for example).
A
> JSP editor would depend on the core web tools feature to support
> HTML/CSS/JavaScript template text, and on the JDT for embedded scriptlets
> etc. (there needs to be an infrastructure for nested/mixed content types
for
> this, which should ideally be provided by platform-text).
>
> OTOH, J2EE development mmight also have nothing to do with web development
> (if you're doing rich clients or JMS or whatever), so the dependancy graph
> for a JSP editor could look like this:
>
> Platform
> / \
> / \
> JDT \
> / \
> / \
> J2EE-Tools Web-Tools
> \ /
> \ /
> \ /
> \ /
> JSP-Editor
>
> (the JSP-editor would depend on J2EE-tools because of the discussed
> deployment features, but that dependancy might as well be optional)
>
> All that said, I do think that the web tools project could be split into
> multiple plugins/features internally, serving as an umbrella project. I
just
> don't like the idea of one monolithic block that includes everything from
> HTML editing to application server management.
>
> -chris
>
> > "Mart
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| Re: Web Tools vs. J2EE Tools [message #8465 is a reply to message #8434] |
Wed, 17 September 2003 11:04 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: dirk.meister.web.de
I cannot agree to that,
most Eclipse User will need J2EE toolkits and j2ee based web tools (eg jsp
editor) not other
web tools like an php editor.
So java Webtools and j2ee are a componend that should not split within this
project.
Of course it should be possible to build a web-application without the
other j2ee functions. May be as "Web Application Project" but on other web
tool elements shouldn't be the focus.
Greetings
Dirk Meister
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:47:15 -0400, Jim Mason <jmason900@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Based on my experiences to date, I agree that the web tools has to be
> just
> that - web tools NOT constrained to the J2EE model only IF web tools are
> to
> gain wide acceptance in the marketplace. Even the thought of starting
> "J2EE
> to begin with" is an incredibly limiting scenario that must be avoided...
>
> Jim Mason
> "Christopher Lenz" <cmlenz@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:bjmsd9$5uh$1@eclipse.org...
>> Robert Varga wrote:
>> > Yes, but JSP editing in my opinion belong to J2EE tools.
>> >
>> > Also J2EE tools could depend on Web tools.
>>
>> I agree. As a simple rule, a core web tools feature should not depend on
> JDT
>> in any way. I would want to deploy eclipse installations for editing
>> HTML,
>> CSS, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, etc without having to install the rather
>> heavy
>> weight JDT. Basically you'd just install the platform runtime binary and
> the
>> core web tools feature, and you'd have a nice IDE for basic web
> development.
>>
>> If you then need to develop with specific server-side
>> technologies/frameworks such as J2EE, you could add the JDT and J2EE
>> tools
>> to the installation (others might want to add a PHP editor, for example)
>> .
> A
>> JSP editor would depend on the core web tools feature to support
>> HTML/CSS/JavaScript template text, and on the JDT for embedded
>> scriptlets
>> etc. (there needs to be an infrastructure for nested/mixed content types
> for
>> this, which should ideally be provided by platform-text).
>>
>> OTOH, J2EE development mmight also have nothing to do with web
>> development
>> (if you're doing rich clients or JMS or whatever), so the dependancy
>> graph
>> for a JSP editor could look like this:
>>
>> Platform
>> / \
>> / \
>> JDT \
>> / \
>> / \
>> J2EE-Tools Web-Tools
>> \ /
>> \ /
>> \ /
>> \ /
>> JSP-Editor
>>
>> (the JSP-editor would depend on J2EE-tools because of the discussed
>> deployment features, but that dependancy might as well be optional)
>>
>> All that said, I do think that the web tools project could be split into
>> multiple plugins/features internally, serving as an umbrella project. I
> just
>> don't like the idea of one monolithic block that includes everything
>> from
>> HTML editing to application server management.
>>
>> -chris
>>
>> > "MartÃn López" <lopezmm@mixmail.com> wrote in message
>> > news:bjkdmi$nue$1@eclipse.org...
>> >
>> >>Totally agree with that ... the project should be separated in other
> two:
>> >>Eclipse Web Tools (html, xml, jsp, publishing, etc.) & Eclipse J2EE
> Tools
>> >>(ejb, app servers, jar, war and ear deployment, etc.)
>> >>
>> >>"Christopher Lenz" <cmlenz@gmx.de> escribió en el mensaje
>> >>news:bjagm7$tnv$1@eclipse.org...
>> >>
>> >>>Hi all,
>> >>>
>> >>>just wanted to voice my concern that the charter of the "hopefully
>> soon
>> >
>> > to
>> >
>> >>>become real" Web Tools Platform project has such a strong wording
>> >
>> > towards
>> >
>> >>>J2EE. The web development world is so much richer than just J2EE, and
>> >
>> > yet
>> >
>> >>>J2EE is more than just web technology. If anything, J2EE-specific
>> tools
>> >>>could live under the umbrella of a web tools project... although I'd
>> >>>personally see a web tools project as a foundation that J2EE tools
> could
>> >>>build upon -- next to the JDT.
>> >>>
>> >>>There. 'Tis Said. :-P
>> >>>-chris
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
>
--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
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| Re: Web Tools vs. J2EE Tools [message #8496 is a reply to message #8465] |
Thu, 18 September 2003 17:30 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: bf.digitalstrider.com
Eclipse is intended as a platform. The plugins are written in java and
the demo plugin (so to say) is the Java Development Environment. While
most of the people out there see eclipse as a Java IDE, it is not. And
to follow up on this idea the webtools-project would have to be only a
webtools project which allows handling files in various formats (xml,
xsl, html, whatever else) in a convenient way. A j2ee platform will
tightly integrate as was stated by Christopher Lenz earlier in this thread.
Dan
<# Dont flame on me, i'm behind a wetwall. #>
Dirk Meister wrote:
> I cannot agree to that,
>
> most Eclipse User will need J2EE toolkits and j2ee based web tools (eg
> jsp editor) not other
> web tools like an php editor.
> So java Webtools and j2ee are a componend that should not split within
> this project.
>
> Of course it should be possible to build a web-application without the
> other j2ee functions. May be as "Web Application Project" but on other
> web tool elements shouldn't be the focus.
>
> Greetings
> Dirk Meister
>
> On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 08:47:15 -0400, Jim Mason <jmason900@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Based on my experiences to date, I agree that the web tools has to be
>> just
>> that - web tools NOT constrained to the J2EE model only IF web tools
>> are to
>> gain wide acceptance in the marketplace. Even the thought of starting
>> "J2EE
>> to begin with" is an incredibly limiting scenario that must be avoided...
>>
>> Jim Mason
>> "Christopher Lenz" <cmlenz@gmx.de> wrote in message
>> news:bjmsd9$5uh$1@eclipse.org...
>>
>>> Robert Varga wrote:
>>> > Yes, but JSP editing in my opinion belong to J2EE tools.
>>> >
>>> > Also J2EE tools could depend on Web tools.
>>>
>>> I agree. As a simple rule, a core web tools feature should not depend on
>>
>> JDT
>>
>>> in any way. I would want to deploy eclipse installations for editing
>>> HTML,
>>> CSS, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, etc without having to install the rather
>>> heavy
>>> weight JDT. Basically you'd just install the platform runtime binary and
>>
>> the
>>
>>> core web tools feature, and you'd have a nice IDE for basic web
>>
>> development.
>>
>>>
>>> If you then need to develop with specific server-side
>>> technologies/frameworks such as J2EE, you could add the JDT and J2EE
>>> tools
>>> to the installation (others might want to add a PHP editor, for
>>> example) .
>>
>> A
>>
>>> JSP editor would depend on the core web tools feature to support
>>> HTML/CSS/JavaScript template text, and on the JDT for embedded
>>> scriptlets
>>> etc. (there needs to be an infrastructure for nested/mixed content types
>>
>> for
>>
>>> this, which should ideally be provided by platform-text).
>>>
>>> OTOH, J2EE development mmight also have nothing to do with web
>>> development
>>> (if you're doing rich clients or JMS or whatever), so the dependancy
>>> graph
>>> for a JSP editor could look like this:
>>>
>>> Platform
>>> / \
>>> / \
>>> JDT \
>>> / \
>>> / \
>>> J2EE-Tools Web-Tools
>>> \ /
>>> \ /
>>> \ /
>>> \ /
>>> JSP-Editor
>>>
>>> (the JSP-editor would depend on J2EE-tools because of the discussed
>>> deployment features, but that dependancy might as well be optional)
>>>
>>> All that said, I do think that the web tools project could be split into
>>> multiple plugins/features internally, serving as an umbrella project. I
>>
>> just
>>
>>> don't like the idea of one monolithic block that includes everything
>>> from
>>> HTML editing to application server management.
>>>
>>> -chris
>>>
>>> > "MartÃn López" <lopezmm@mixmail.com> wrote in message
>>> > news:bjkdmi$nue$1@eclipse.org...
>>> >
>>> >>Totally agree with that ... the project should be separated in other
>>
>> two:
>>
>>> >>Eclipse Web Tools (html, xml, jsp, publishing, etc.) & Eclipse J2EE
>>
>> Tools
>>
>>> >>(ejb, app servers, jar, war and ear deployment, etc.)
>>> >>
>>> >>"Christopher Lenz" <cmlenz@gmx.de> escribió en el mensaje
>>> >>news:bjagm7$tnv$1@eclipse.org...
>>> >>
>>> >>>Hi all,
>>> >>>
>>> >>>just wanted to voice my concern that the charter of the "hopefully
>>> soon
>>> >
>>> > to
>>> >
>>> >>>become real" Web Tools Platform project has such a strong wording
>>> >
>>> > towards
>>> >
>>> >>>J2EE. The web development world is so much richer than just J2EE, and
>>> >
>>> > yet
>>> >
>>> >>>J2EE is more than just web technology. If anything, J2EE-specific
>>> tools
>>> >>>could live under the umbrella of a web tools project... although I'd
>>> >>>personally see a web tools project as a foundation that J2EE tools
>>
>> could
>>
>>> >>>build upon -- next to the JDT.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>There. 'Tis Said. :-P
>>> >>>-chris
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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