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Tue, 15 January 2008 19:16

Eclipse User

Dear RAP developers and users,
First let me congratulate for the fascinating RAP project.

I work in a Spanish bank and we must develop mobile banking and in the
future Internet banking.

We would like to work with rap, but we have some questions:
IE Mobile (and other similar browsers) support RAP?

If this is possible, we need to reduce the traffic between the client and
server. We have found that loading any RAP application requiring about 1
MB.
It is possible to minimize the javascript code? For mobile platform we
only need a small subset of the controls and features supported by rap.

Regards,
Jorge

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #70250 is a reply to message #70189]

Wed, 16 January 2008 05:18

Eclipse User

Hi,

I'm here again,

I have found a way to compress all the libraries javascript before loading
the application.

manager.register( libraryName,
HTML.CHARSET_NAME_ISO_8859_1,
RegisterOptions.VERSION_AND_COMPRESS );

The idea is to minimize server-client traffic on application load but this
mechanism of compression is not used.
I've tried setting RegisterOptions to VERSION_AND_COMPRESS in debug mode
and I found that the result was no very good, application size was almost
the same.

Will VERSION_AND_COMPRESS option be available soon?

There's any other way to get a smaller code size in client side?
I'm trying RAP in a mobile application but not all generated code is
necessary.
There are libraries, comments and blanks not needed. I want to minimize
loading data traffic.

Jorge,

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #70574 is a reply to message #70250]

Thu, 17 January 2008 18:03

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: jkrause.innoopract.com

Hi Jorge,

The typical size of the first response to the browser is about 175K. It
is compressed if the browser supports zipped responses, which almost all
browsers do. If the browser does not support zipped responses the
initial size is about 1 megabyte. Subsequent responses are usually very
small (50-2000 Byte).

Looking at RAP and mobile devices there are a few things to explain:
- qooxdoo (with the features we need) has a memory footprint that is
not ideal for devices.
- running a complete workbench on a device leads to a high complexity
on the client side, which consumes resources but provides only little
value due to the restricted screen size.

But if you restrict yourself to some extent RAP should work for you:
As a first step you may want to try running a simple RWT-based app on
your mobile device. I have seen RWT-applications running on Nokia phones.

You can also remove the functionality from qooxdoo that you don't need
(e.g. Tree and Table), this will lead to a smaller client side
footprint. You need to make sure that the corresponding RWT classes are
not being used anywhere. See
http://qooxdoo.org/documentation/0.7/custom_builds and please use the
sources at org.eclipse.rap.rwt/js as a starting point.

If RWT works on the targeted mobile devices you may want to have a look
at eRCP from a conceptual point of view. It provides all the benefits of
modularization, but not the complexity in the UI. I think it shouldn't
be a very big deal to create an "eRAP" based on the eRCP implementation.

Mid-term we will switch to qooxdoo 0.8, which will offer a smaller
footprint, and probably also the possibility to create very lightweight
and targeted UI components close to the browser DOM. DISCLAIMER: I am
not saying that the RAP team will work on those topics soon.

We also plan to move the rendering to a separate layer (fragment), so
that it is possible to use different client side frameworks / technologies.

Please don't hesitate to ask more questions on this forum, RAP on mobile
devices is absolutely a topic of interest for us.

Jochen

----------------------
Jochen Krause
RAP project lead
Innoopract
http://innoopract.com

Jorge wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'm here again,
>
> I have found a way to compress all the libraries javascript before
> loading the application.
>
> manager.register( libraryName,
> HTML.CHARSET_NAME_ISO_8859_1,
> RegisterOptions.VERSION_AND_COMPRESS );
>
>
> The idea is to minimize server-client traffic on application load but
> this mechanism of compression is not used.
> I've tried setting RegisterOptions to VERSION_AND_COMPRESS in debug mode
> and I found that the result was no very good, application size was
> almost the same.
>
> Will VERSION_AND_COMPRESS option be available soon?
>
> There's any other way to get a smaller code size in client side?
> I'm trying RAP in a mobile application but not all generated code is
> necessary.
> There are libraries, comments and blanks not needed. I want to minimize
> loading data traffic.
>
> Jorge,
>

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #70839 is a reply to message #70574]

Fri, 18 January 2008 13:36

Eclipse User

Thanks for your explanation above.

I have reduced the size of the first response about 400k(without zipped
responses). For this I compressed all the javascripts files in RWT pluging
and I deleted Tree. (with this the zipped responses initial size is about
100k and I could reduce more)

But....

I tried to run some RAP applications on two different mobile devices
without success.
Mobiles:
HTC P3300 (PDA Phone with Windows Mobile 5.0)
Nokia E65 (Symbian operating system with Nokia web browser)

RAP applications:
RAP Workbench Demo
RAP Mail Demo
Autonomind
Calculator demo (runnig on Tomcat with "my" RWT library)

Result:
HTC P3300 browser show only rap background(blue).
Nokia E65 close the browser after load application.

I am very interested in RAP. If I do that it could operate on mobile
devices I could work on something like ERAP while the rest of my
colleagues
develop our project using RAP. But If I can't run a RAP application on a
mobile device in a few days we will have to use a different solution.

Any Idea?

Any way I love RAP. Hopefully we had started with internet banking and not
with mobile banking. XD

Excuse my English.

Regards,

Jorge

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #72170 is a reply to message #70839]

Tue, 29 January 2008 19:22

Eclipse User

Hi Jorge

We've just got RAP going on an HP iPAQ running WM05 and a Metrologic
Optimus PDA running CE.NET 5.0. The browsers used were Pocket IE (WM05)
and IE6 for CE (CE.NET 5.0) plus Opera 8.65 for WM05.

We also initially got the blue screen only. It turns out this is due to
javascript errors. Do turn on the ability to view script errors in your
browser. If the browser doesn't have that option, check out
http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/MobileDeveloper.D isplayScriptErrors
for more info.

We discovered OutOfMemory errors on one device (it only had 64MB memory
with about 18MB free to use).

On the devices I mentioned above we discovered that qooxdoo tries to call
window.external which is not supported in any of the above browsers on
CE/Windows Mobile.

I'm just about to post a patch for this to the RAP team - see Bug 217078.

If I find out any more tips, I'll post them on this newsgroup. It'd be
great if you could do likewise.

Cheers
Paul

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #72593 is a reply to message #72170]

Fri, 01 February 2008 07:20

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: fappel.innoopract.com

Hi,

a patch for this will be very useful - but are you sure about the bug
number? It leads me to a JDT Core bug - forgive me if I'm writing nonsence
here, but...

Ciao
Frank

"Paul Norrie" <pauln@ablazesoftware.co.nz> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:576aea8a27115adbb71d7cbd297d4302$1@www.eclipse.org...
> Hi Jorge
>
> We've just got RAP going on an HP iPAQ running WM05 and a Metrologic
> Optimus PDA running CE.NET 5.0. The browsers used were Pocket IE (WM05)
> and IE6 for CE (CE.NET 5.0) plus Opera 8.65 for WM05.
>
> We also initially got the blue screen only. It turns out this is due to
> javascript errors. Do turn on the ability to view script errors in your
> browser. If the browser doesn't have that option, check out
> http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/MobileDeveloper.D isplayScriptErrors
> for more info.
>
> We discovered OutOfMemory errors on one device (it only had 64MB memory
> with about 18MB free to use).
>
> On the devices I mentioned above we discovered that qooxdoo tries to call
> window.external which is not supported in any of the above browsers on
> CE/Windows Mobile.
>
> I'm just about to post a patch for this to the RAP team - see Bug 217078.
>
> If I find out any more tips, I'll post them on this newsgroup. It'd be
> great if you could do likewise.
>
> Cheers
> Paul
>

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #72652 is a reply to message #72170]

Fri, 01 February 2008 08:00

Eclipse User

Originally posted by: rherrmann.innoopract.com

Hi Paul,

thanks for exploring RAP on mobile devices. I opened a bug at qooxdoo (
https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=217018 ).
I think there was a typo in you previous posting. The bug id is 217018.

Cheers,
Rüdiger

Paul Norrie wrote:
> Hi Jorge
>
> We've just got RAP going on an HP iPAQ running WM05 and a Metrologic
> Optimus PDA running CE.NET 5.0. The browsers used were Pocket IE (WM05)
> and IE6 for CE (CE.NET 5.0) plus Opera 8.65 for WM05.
>
> We also initially got the blue screen only. It turns out this is due to
> javascript errors. Do turn on the ability to view script errors in your
> browser. If the browser doesn't have that option, check out
> http://channel9.msdn.com/wiki/default.aspx/MobileDeveloper.D isplayScriptErrors
> for more info.
>
> We discovered OutOfMemory errors on one device (it only had 64MB memory
> with about 18MB free to use).
>
> On the devices I mentioned above we discovered that qooxdoo tries to
> call window.external which is not supported in any of the above browsers
> on CE/Windows Mobile.
>
> I'm just about to post a patch for this to the RAP team - see Bug 217078.
>
> If I find out any more tips, I'll post them on this newsgroup. It'd be
> great if you could do likewise.
>
> Cheers
> Paul
>

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #86252 is a reply to message #72170]

Tue, 06 May 2008 08:34

Eclipse User

Hi Paul,

Paul Norrie schrieb:
> Hi Jorge
>
> We've just got RAP going on an HP iPAQ running WM05 and a Metrologic
> Optimus PDA running CE.NET 5.0. The browsers used were Pocket IE (WM05)
> and IE6 for CE (CE.NET 5.0) plus Opera 8.65 for WM05.
[...]

I also tried to view my RAP application on Windows Mobile 5 device with
Opera Mobile 8.65. But qooxdoo tells that my "browser or settings are
not supported". It seems that the XMLHttpRequest object can't be
instantiated. Changing the footprint of Opera in the settings from
"Mobile" to "Desktop" has no effect.

Did you have the same problems and solved them somehow?

Reinhold

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #86500 is a reply to message #86252]

Wed, 07 May 2008 18:26

Eclipse User

Guten Tag Reinhold

Unfortunately we didn't come across this error on Opera. We were using
1.0 at the time I think. Since then we've only used RAP on IE6 for
Windows CE 5.0 as Opera does not work on CE 5, just Windows Mobile 5.

What happens if you run it in Pocket IE instead of Opera?

There is considerable memory useage which can affect issues. We were
using about 40MB of memory on the client. Also, certain aspects of
qooxdoo are very slow on a PXA270 or Samsung processor. In particular, it
takes about 3 seconds for IE to create a qooxdoo Window object with a
PXA270 processor on Windows CE 5 - I didn't test on Opera. RAP doesn't
seem to add much performance hit but the underlying qooxdoo libraries do
need to be trimmed down to make performance better on these devices.

Re: Rap on mobile devices [message #87197 is a reply to message #86500]

Wed, 14 May 2008 09:52

Eclipse User

Hi Paul,

Paul Norrie schrieb:
> What happens if you run it in Pocket IE instead of Opera?

IE does nothing else than showing the background with the blue colour
gradient. Until now I failed to display any debug javascript messages
(followed your hint). But I keep trying.

Reinhold

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