| Maven and Eclipse [message #329364] |
Sat, 21 June 2008 06:47  |
Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
Hi,
Is it not about time Eclipse Plugin developers were able to use maven.
When can we have eclipse plugins that use the maven 2 repository?
This would reduce the download size of the plugins too.
Can eclipse OSGI work with the Maven 2 repo?
Raghu
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329366 is a reply to message #329364] |
Sat, 21 June 2008 11:10  |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
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Raghu,
There are two maven projects in the works:
http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/iam/
http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/m2e/
Comments below.
Raghu wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is it not about time Eclipse Plugin developers were able to use maven.
Desire for something doesn't make it happen. Only development resource
dedicated to do the work will make it happen.
> When can we have eclipse plugins that use the maven 2 repository?
When someone does it.
> This would reduce the download size of the plugins too.
Really? How would it do that? I don't think plugins are shipping bits
that aren't needed.
> Can eclipse OSGI work with the Maven 2 repo?
What does it mean to work with OSGi? I thought Maven has to do with
build/development time issues not runtime issues...
>
> Raghu
>
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Raghu,<br>
<br>
There are two maven projects in the works:<br>
<blockquote><a href="http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/iam/">http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/iam/</a><br>
<a href="http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/m2e/">http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/m2e/</a><br>
</blockquote>
Comments below.<br>
<br>
<br>
Raghu wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:3ff1b7f86c66498bc2ba2903beed9223$1@www.eclipse.org"
type="cite">Hi,
<br>
<br>
Is it not about time Eclipse Plugin developers were able to use maven.
<br>
</blockquote>
Desire for something doesn't make it happen.
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329367 is a reply to message #329366] |
Sat, 21 June 2008 16:14 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
I am aware of them. They are certainly fine efforts.
But probably need more help from eclipse team itself.
I am wondering when will eclipse plugins themselves be developed using
Maven?
Also I am wondering whether the maven repository can be a valid location
for specifying at least some of the jars. So that we dont need all jars to
be located inside a eclipse/plugins folder.
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329370 is a reply to message #329368] |
Sat, 21 June 2008 18:20 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: zx.code9.com
Raghu wrote:
> But I still feel the way eclipse integrates with Ant the same way it
> needs to integrate with Maven2. Its generally felt that eclipse has been
> neglecting Maven.
Couldn't it be the other way around ;)?
Cheers,
~ Chris
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329371 is a reply to message #329367] |
Sat, 21 June 2008 18:21 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
Raghu,
Comments below.
Raghu wrote:
> I am aware of them. They are certainly fine efforts.
>
> But probably need more help from eclipse team itself.
Unfortunately resource is tight for everyone. It's simply impossible to
do everything that everyone wants. I don't believe Maven is a priority
issue for the platform team.
> I am wondering when will eclipse plugins themselves be developed using
> Maven?
That may well never happen. I'm not sure what the advantages to that
would be. I'm not saying there aren't any. I just don't know enough to
know what they might be.
>
> Also I am wondering whether the maven repository can be a valid
> location for specifying at least some of the jars. So that we dont
> need all jars to be located inside a eclipse/plugins folder.
It's possible to make links as well...
>
>
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329372 is a reply to message #329370] |
Sat, 21 June 2008 18:23 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
Chris,
Yes, to me it seems there is some mutual neglect. Probably a bit of the
not invented here problem in action... I'm not sure the relative
strengths of Maven. And did Maven show up late to the party?
Chris Aniszczyk wrote:
> Raghu wrote:
>> But I still feel the way eclipse integrates with Ant the same way it
>> needs to integrate with Maven2. Its generally felt that eclipse has
>> been neglecting Maven.
>
> Couldn't it be the other way around ;)?
>
> Cheers,
>
> ~ Chris
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329376 is a reply to message #329372] |
Sun, 22 June 2008 06:34 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
Maven did show up a bit late for the party.
But speaking for myself as a user of application servers, eclipse, maven
all the three would do well to work in tandem.
Wishful thinking, but wont it be nice to have eclipse and even servers
use maven repository for their classpaths or is that so unthinkable.
Benefits:
1. We could have smaller downloads for eclipse and application servers
themselves.
2. And if this were to happen consequently additional jars referred to by
applications will not need to be packaged and pushed into servers as part
of build and release or WTP builds for ears or wars. Admittedly this
impacts J2ee.
3. But if we get our acts together and do this its worthwile because each
enabling product we use for development be it eclipse, WTP or maven will
consequently being doing less work and hence be performing even faster
with less overhead because most of the jars will simply remain in one
place - the local maven repository.
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329382 is a reply to message #329380] |
Sun, 22 June 2008 11:15 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
I am not requesting anyone to drop any part of eclipse. Anyways the change
needs to happen from all players for the overall benefit of Java. Eclipse
is one of the players. Maven might have joined the party a bit later. But
it is an opportunity. Hopefully we don't miss the bus. Of course these are
just my personal views am someone who remains a fan of eclipse.
If the industry were to use the maven repository more the following
benefits will lead to more efficient, effective tools and project life
cycles. It all depends on whether we think these are real benefits in the
long run or not.
1. We could have smaller downloads for eclipse and application servers
themselves. (a minor benefit)
2. And if this were to happen consequently additional jars referred to by
applications will not need to be packaged and pushed into servers as part
of build and release or WTP builds/deploys for ears or wars. Admittedly
this impacts J2ee.
3. But if we get our acts together and do this its worth-wile because each
enabling product we use for development be it eclipse, WTP or maven will
consequently being doing less work and hence be performing even faster
with less overhead because most of the jars will simply remain in one
place - the local maven repository.
(A major benefit[I repeat myself]: any build deploy tool eg Ant, Maven
including WTP for Rapid build and deploy and debug is to a large part
currently copying third party jars from one location to another and then
assembling them alongwith other code and then pushing all this into the
server and consuming CPU. A small change in J2EE classpath approach and we
can all get more productive.)
No?
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329383 is a reply to message #329382] |
Sun, 22 June 2008 11:31 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: merks.ca.ibm.com
Raghu,
Comments below.
Raghu wrote:
> I am not requesting anyone to drop any part of eclipse.
Walter is just hinting again at the limited resources...
> Anyways the change needs to happen from all players for the overall
> benefit of Java. Eclipse is one of the players. Maven might have
> joined the party a bit later. But it is an opportunity. Hopefully we
> don't miss the bus. Of course these are just my personal views am
> someone who remains a fan of eclipse.
>
> If the industry were to use the maven repository more the following
> benefits will lead to more efficient, effective tools and project life
> cycles. It all depends on whether we think these are real benefits in
> the long run or not.
> 1. We could have smaller downloads for eclipse and application servers
> themselves. (a minor benefit)
So I get the sense that Maven will hold prebuilt jars and you'd like to
see the possibility not only to use those jars at development time, but
also at runtime so that an installed application would dynamically use
the Maven repository to fetch additional jars that would be needed. So
your desires affect not only the development time tools but also the
Equinox/OSGi runtime. It's an interesting idea in particular with LGPL
libraries which would not be distributed but rather fetched directly by
the running application.
>
> 2. And if this were to happen consequently additional jars referred to
> by applications will not need to be packaged and pushed into servers
> as part of build and release or WTP builds/deploys for ears or wars.
> Admittedly this impacts J2ee.
JEE and OSGi/Equinox.
>
> 3. But if we get our acts together and do this its worth-wile because
> each enabling product we use for development be it eclipse, WTP or
> maven will consequently being doing less work and hence be performing
> even faster with less overhead because most of the jars will simply
> remain in one place - the local maven repository.
> (A major benefit[I repeat myself]: any build deploy tool eg Ant, Maven
> including WTP for Rapid build and deploy and debug is to a large part
> currently copying third party jars from one location to another and
> then assembling them alongwith other code and then pushing all this
> into the server and consuming CPU.
Well, it seems to me that the jars need to be pulled/pushed at some
point and that the same cost will be incurred at that point.
> A small change in J2EE classpath approach and we can all get more
> productive.)
>
> No?
It's an interesting idea that affects many parties all of whom would
need to coordinate their activities. Let's see what Chris says...
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329387 is a reply to message #329382] |
Sun, 22 June 2008 16:06 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: cold.phusion.gmail.com
Raghu,
I think you misunderstood the purpose of Maven. It is not a dependency
management tool - it is a >>build<< management tool with integrated
dependency repository. There is a big difference - you don't need Maven
to run your application, only to build it, right? So how do you expect
it to download the dependencies at runtime if the end user doesn't have
it installed?
When Maven builds an application, it includes every single dependency in
the final bundle - so whether you manually add your JARs to /lib or let
Maven do it for you, doesn't really matter (size-wise).
You are right, though, that when it comes to external libraries, the
Eclipse RCP environment has very poor options. Actually only one -
include all libraries as JAR bundles as Runtime Dependencies. There are
no options for resolving transitive dependencies, automated fetching of
dependency repositories (not only for external libraries but also for
Eclipse plugins), etc - as in comparisson to Maven (again only for
building), the Ports in *BSD and technically every good package manager.
And I do agree, that this topic deserves attention :)
Cheerz,
Alex
Raghu schrieb:
> I am not requesting anyone to drop any part of eclipse. Anyways the
> change needs to happen from all players for the overall benefit of Java.
> Eclipse is one of the players. Maven might have joined the party a bit
> later. But it is an opportunity. Hopefully we don't miss the bus. Of
> course these are just my personal views am someone who remains a fan of
> eclipse.
>
> If the industry were to use the maven repository more the following
> benefits will lead to more efficient, effective tools and project life
> cycles. It all depends on whether we think these are real benefits in
> the long run or not.
> 1. We could have smaller downloads for eclipse and application servers
> themselves. (a minor benefit)
>
> 2. And if this were to happen consequently additional jars referred to
> by applications will not need to be packaged and pushed into servers as
> part of build and release or WTP builds/deploys for ears or wars.
> Admittedly this impacts J2ee.
>
> 3. But if we get our acts together and do this its worth-wile because
> each enabling product we use for development be it eclipse, WTP or maven
> will consequently being doing less work and hence be performing even
> faster with less overhead because most of the jars will simply remain in
> one place - the local maven repository.
> (A major benefit[I repeat myself]: any build deploy tool eg Ant, Maven
> including WTP for Rapid build and deploy and debug is to a large part
> currently copying third party jars from one location to another and then
> assembling them alongwith other code and then pushing all this into the
> server and consuming CPU. A small change in J2EE classpath approach and
> we can all get more productive.)
>
> No?
>
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329388 is a reply to message #329387] |
Sun, 22 June 2008 17:05 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
Yes you are right. Its meant to be a build tool. But thats only because
the application servers and IDEs like eclipse expect to pick all the jars
from their favourite locations. What I am saying is just an idea a
sugegstion.
There is no reason why they cannot use the Maven repository for jars that
already exist there.
And when you package an application as an ear or a war why can you not
just have a "link" to the jars contained inside the ear or inside the
war's WEB-INF/lib folder instead of the jars being physically being
present there. Because the ear and war is supposed to be self contained
and because we so far did not have a standard location to locate jars does
not mean we should continue to do so.
I am hoping with a small tweak in JEE class path resolution for ears and
wars the applications can be built without all that copying and pushing of
the jars and ultmately into the server.
If the ears and wars can be packaged to contain only links to the jars at
least during development the task of building and deploying will have less
of copying and pushing of jars. During production if needed the links
could materialize into physical jars inside the ears/wars only if needed.
Think of the benefits it will bring to WTP in publishing the application
without copying and pushing the jars into the application server.
Physically copying and pushing the jars should be necessary only when a
standard means to locate the jars is not available.
The benefits are many even to build tools like Ant and Maven.
Hopefully the idea is not too wild.
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329389 is a reply to message #329388] |
Sun, 22 June 2008 17:28 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
Yes you are right. Its meant to be a build tool. But thats only because
the application servers and IDEs like eclipse expect to pick all the jars
from their favourite locations. What I am saying is just an idea a
sugegstion.
There is no reason why they cannot use the Maven repository for jars that
already exist there.
And when you package an application as an ear or a war why can you not
just have a "link" to the jars contained inside the ear or inside the
war's WEB-INF/lib folder instead of the jars being physically being
present there. Because the ear and war is supposed to be self contained
and because we so far did not have a standard location to locate jars does
not mean we should continue to do so.
I am hoping with a small tweak in JEE class path resolution for ears and
wars the applications can be built without all that copying and pushing of
the jars and ultmately into the server.
If the ears and wars can be packaged to contain only links to the jars at
least during development the task of building and deploying will have less
of copying and pushing of jars. During production if needed the links
could materialize into physical jars inside the ears/wars only if needed.
Think of the benefits it will bring to WTP in publishing the application
without copying and pushing the jars into the application server.
Physically copying and pushing the jars should be necessary only when a
standard means to locate the jars is not available.
The benefits are many even to build tools like Ant and Maven.
Hopefully the idea is not too wild. Like Ed said before this will require
some concious effort from all players. Else it remains just a wild
thought.
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329393 is a reply to message #329389] |
Mon, 23 June 2008 00:29 |
 Walter Harley
Messages: 847
Registered: July 2009 |
Senior Member |
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"Raghu" <raghuraman1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:479f049b0f7e89fa9e82fd9b5951008a$1@www.eclipse.org...
> And when you package an application as an ear or a war why can you not
> just have a "link" to the jars contained inside the ear or inside the
> war's WEB-INF/lib folder instead of the jars being physically being
> present there. Because the ear and war is supposed to be self contained
> and because we so far did not have a standard location to locate jars does
> not mean we should continue to do so.
>
> I am hoping with a small tweak in JEE class path resolution for ears and
> wars the applications can be built without all that copying and pushing of
> the jars and ultmately into the server.
Raghu, I'm feeling confused about what it is you are asking for.
If you're talking about something that would affect the behavior of JEE
applications written with Eclipse, I don't understand why you're posting
this to eclipse.platform, nor why you're suggesting that Eclipse plugins
should be built this way (since they are not JEE apps).
If you're talking about something that would affect the runtime behavior of
the Eclipse platform, I don't understand why you're talking about ears and
wars, and I don't understand what runtime behavior has to do with Maven.
If you're talking about using Maven to manage build dependencies in the
Eclipse project, I don't understand how that would interact with OSGi and
PDE, nor what the benefit would be except to help popularize Maven; and I
don't see why we would want to add another external technology dependency to
the Eclipse build process.
So I feel like I'm still missing your point. Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but
looking over the thread I think I might not be the only one who'se having
difficulty following you. Can you clarify exactly what your proposal is,
what aspects of Eclipse would be affected, what work you think is entailed,
and who should be doing it?
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| Re: Maven and Eclipse [message #329395 is a reply to message #329393] |
Mon, 23 June 2008 04:15 |
| Eclipse User |
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Originally posted by: raghuraman1.yahoo.com
Right, I use eclipse and Maven and like both. I find its a bit difficult
to use the combination. There are some efforts to smooth all of this. But
they dont yet integrate as well as say Ant does with Eclipse. Things are
getting better. Yes.
But I felt that there is room for improvement. This is obviously limited
due to budgeting as pointed out by you.
I added a wild thought (for a carrot) that if we really embrace it more we
can also use it for runtime jars and not just a build tool and thereby get
more efficient tools and build processes. That however may be science
fiction till every player in Java [read - IDEs, App Servers] thinks the
same. I also pointed out that if this thought were to become a reality
tools like WTP will have a easier job publishing the ears and wars into
the servers because the contained jars will really be sitting just in one
place and not being pushed around. But thats not how I started this
discussion. You are right I should just limit it to saying that I wish
Maven and Eclipse were better integrated. This is after all a eclipse
forum.
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